not sure about posting this...

if it were a perfect world, and only reputable breeders were breeding pits, amstaffs, and their other DA cousins, do we think it's possible to "breed out" the DA? obviously, this could take generations, but do we think it's possible? that's what i really want to know.

 
Yes, it should be possible to breed out the DA.  However, what you wind up with could be significantly different than the current breeds.  An experiment on foxes showed that selectively breeding them only for tameness produced animals with floppy ears and variety of different colors.

Who is breeding pit bulls to be HA?

 
The ones who don't understand the difference between DA and HA enough to avoid breeding their HA dogs (all breeds have them occassionally).  The ones who think a little HA is OK if that gets them more DA and more money for their pups.

Wait. I know that people get pit bulls and turn them into human aggressive dogs in cruel ways, but I just wasn't aware that they intentionally tried to genetically breed human aggressive pit bulls.

I wasn't sure if that was understandable from my previous posts.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

A lot the posters said that instead of trying to change what the pit bull IS, people should learn about the pit bull and how to properly handle the breed and accept the breed for what it is.

And that is exactly what I will tell you. I don't think any breed SHOULD be changed to make it "easier" to own for the general public. I don't want labradors in pit bull clothing, or golden retrievers in doberman clothing.

Not every dog SHOULD be owned by everyone.


I don't think many people are out there breeding FOR HA. I think that many people are just irresponsibly breeding - and what you get FROM that is unstable dogs. And unstable pitbulls being bred in THOUSANDS results in HA dogs. I see unstable pit bulls all OVER the place - they are HA not because they were bred to BE that way, but because they come from poor stock, are poorly socialized, poorly trained, and again , i cannot stress enough - come from dogs that should never have been bred. Temperament is passed on - and if you breed poor temperament, you GET poor temperament.

dobedvm- i agree with you to a point.  with pits, however, there really is such a broad range of tempermants.  and yes, bad breeding produces unstable tempermants.
 
i, however, have seen and heard plenty of examples of people breeding for HA purposely.  i think breeding varies by area, and in my experience, the worse the area, the worse the dogs, and the more likely they are being bred specifically for HA..

I guess I just see it hard to breed a genetically HA pit bull since they really only become truly HA through their handlers, not genetically.
I can see the ease of creating more DA pit bulls because that gameness is SUCH a fine line. But these dogs have always had to be handled by humans since the beginning of the breed.

Does that make sense? I'm not sure if it does or not. I know what I'm trying to say, but I'm not sure if I'm able to put into type.

yes, chewbecca, i understand you perfectly.  you're saying that HA is a direct contradiction to the breed's purpose, and i think you're right.  but that isn't stopping people who don't understand that at all from capitalizing on the HA that does pop up and selecting for it.  i've heard of people intentionally mistreating pups to increase HA to make them more marketable.  what i'm not sure about is if mistreating to cause HA and then breeding the worst offenders would have an influence on the bloodline- maybe someone can weigh in on the "human influence after birth" and whether or not it could carry over into the pup's pups....
 
keep in mind here, i live around some very very very bad neighborhoods.  these people don't care what the history is, they probably don't know what BSL is, and their intentions in breeding are only to make money producing the "baddest" pits they can.  these are the eople that BSL is trying to legislate, not you and me, but unfortunately, the law doesn't recognize you and me. 

I thought of this thread today.  I was at the shelter and took Asia, a young pittie, out to a dog run to play.  In the next run over there was a family and a volunteer looking at a mutt Sascha for adoption.  As soon as the kids aw my pittie pup, they were like "aw look at the cute one!"  She was wagging her tail and smiling and the mom goes "no, don't touch that one, they're dangerous!!"  I just rolled my eyes and went in the run.  The kids lost interest in Sascha and kept trying to pet Asia through the fence while the mom was yelling at them that my dog was dangerous and they should be careful.  I really didn't feel like getting into it with her, but finally the adoption volunteer said "you know, she's not dangerous at all.  I've seen WAY more aggressive and dangerous labs than pit bull puppies."  Then the mom got all bitchy and was like "I don't want Sascha b/c she's only paying attention to that pit bull and not my kids." Well DUH woman, if you had to live in a 4x8 cell for months, you'd probably rather run around and get some air with your dog friend than sit still so kids can pet you.  I was going to take Asia out so she'd stop distracting Sascha, but then I thought, no way, this woman needs to see this puppy is going to harm no one.  I should have told her that trying to walk Sascha on a leash is like controlling a wild horse but Asia walks great on her leash! []

what i'm not sure about is if mistreating to cause HA and then breeding the worst offenders would have an influence on the bloodline- maybe someone can weigh in on the "human influence after birth" and whether or not it could carry over into the pup's pups....

 
No, HA caused by mistreatment will not carry over to the pups genetically.  The dam's actions and what she teaches may, however, influence the behavior of the pups.

so if the pups learn HA from the mother, and continue to behave aggressively, and are then selected for such behavior, they would pass HA on that way?  and it would then ingrain itself genetically?  or would it still be a constant "outside influence" cycle?

so if the pups learn HA from the mother, and continue to behave aggressively, and are then selected for such behavior, they would pass HA on that way? and it would then ingrain itself genetically? or would it still be a constant "outside influence" cycle?

 
Learned behavior does not effect the genetics of the offspring.
 
Dogs bred because they exhibit HA effect the genetics of a breeding program only if the HA is at least partially produced by genetics.  If the sire or the dam has genetic HA, then many of the pups will have it.  If the sire and dam both have genetic HA, then it is highly likely that their pups will have it, too.
 
Genetic changes appear sporatically.  Most are immediately fatal to the developing pup and are not passed on further. 
 
Changes that do not keep a dog from breeding enter the gene pool when that changed dog does breed.  If the changed dog does not breed, then the genetic change is lost. 
 
Changes that enter the gene pool and which increase the chances of a dog breeding will become more prevalent within a breed.  Changes that are genetically linked to characteristics that increase the chances of a dog breeding will also become more prevalent within the breed.
 
An example of a genetically linked trait is the fact that all human hemophiliacs are male.

I had 2 A.P.B.T, Zeus and Athena, they were raised together, and adored each other.
I never ,ever raised Zeus to be aggressive against ANY animal, but as he got older he got aggressive. Its bred into them, they are fighters, always, always watch them closely, mine never fought against eachother, but they were terrors when it came to other animals. They were beautiful animals, and I adored them, but I had to put them down, say what you will, but I couldnt keep them kenneled all their lives.
And I would never own another.

ORIGINAL: Elizabeth209

I had 2 A.P.B.T, Zeus and Athena, they were raised together, and adored each other.
I never ,ever raised Zeus to be aggressive against ANY animal, but as he got older he got aggressive. Its bred into them, they are fighters, always, always watch them closely, mine never fought against eachother, but they were terrors when it came to other animals. They were beautiful animals, and I adored them, but I had to put them down, say what you will, but I couldnt keep them kenneled all their lives.
And I would never own another.

I'm really sorry, Elizabeth.

I know Ella has DA issues and bad ones. It's not easy to own her. Not easy AT ALL. She is my only fur baby and will remain my only fur baby for the rest of her life. It sure does bum me at times. But I am going to work with her because, see, I could allow this to keep me in my house FOREVER. Am I scared to walk her? Oh god, you BET. I dread, dread, DREAD coming across another dog on our walks, but this is where I have forced myself to come to grips with it and say to myself, "you know, she's a dog. A DOG. I am a human. I control HER. We're going to make this work because I am in control. This IS workable. And I'm not going to allow a dog, regardless of how much I love her, criple my life. We are going to go on walks and eventually when she sees other dogs, she'll learn to ignore them with my help." I've realized that, if all precautions are taken (she's leashed), exposure cannot be stopped. It's not going to better her. I cannot keep her in my house all the time because I'm afraid of how SHE'LL react. But this is only part of it. I have to take her to training, I have to make sure I am as prepared for bad situations to pop up as much as possible. I do not deny her strength or treat it lightly. I have to be more aware of our surroundings than she does. I have to, like JM said, be a better scanner than she is. And THAT, that is HARD.
I'm going to get sentimental here and cheesy, but...with all that bad comes the better good.
When I come home and she is wagging that tail at me and looks up at me with those HUGE doe eyes and she runs and gets her ball and has it hanging out partially on one side, she makes me smile. When she pounces on her ball when I throw it, when she bully stomps around the house all happily, I am thrilled. One look at those goofy, HUGE bat-like ears that bend forward so cutely, I melt. When she's sitting, waiting for her food and drooling, I realize how much she needs me. Those few, rare times that she gives me face licks while wagging her tail, I realize, after a difficult day, how much I need her.
I may say that stuff about her being just a dog when I need to reassure myself or remind myself that her issues are workable, but honestly, she's a part of my family. Every single night when we ALL go downstairs to put the boys to bed and she HAS TO be right there with us, wagging her tail and just involved, I realize she's like one of my children.

Holy crap, was that all cheesy or what??? hahaha. I'm sorry, but when I think about it, I've had to work so much with her and I get down on myself some days for it, and on others I see the improvement we've made.


And now, now I'm SOOO off topic, so I'll quit going on. haha.

chewbecca i've been thinking about your experience with ella and the boxer... i'm not cesar millan's biggest fan, but i do think he's onto something about 2 dogs meeting face to face, especially in the doorway of YOUR home, if i remember it right.  i wonder if that meeting might not have ended so badly if it had been in a different context...
 
and if i was you i'd practice an "about face" with ella, so that if you see another dog before she does, you can do an about face and never have to deal with the DA at all.  since running into that lab off lead a while back, i now pretty much always turn right around when i see other dogs on our walks.  my dogs don't tend to be DA, except when behind the fence on our patio or if they're leashed and the approaching dog is not, but it's easier to manage the two of them that way.
 
when i adopted my dogs, i did so because they needed homes, not because i have a particular affinity for bullies.  i've developed an affinity for the breeds over time, but i didn't adopt bullies because they were bullies, if that makes any sense.  at this point, i feel somewhat committed to making a difference in the lives of bullies, but as i said, i'm very discouraged at public perceptions.  i can really relate to the poster who said she'd never have another APBT.  sometimes i do wish i had "lower maintainence" dogs, and often i wish i didn't have to defend my dogs every move to people who shouldn't be worried about it anyway.

suprisingly enough, I don't get much negative feedback around here about my dog being a pit bull. Only a couple of times has someone reacted negatively. Most of the time people are FASCINATED by her. They ALWAYS ask me what kind of dog she is and I am kind of hesitant to tell them "pit bull mix" because I'm anticipating a poor response. But they're always like, "oh! She's beautiful!" and they ask me if she's nice or if they can pet her. And of course I say that she LOVES humans and they can pet her all they want. I am watchful of where they pet her, not because she'd bite, she won't. But I am courteous to my dog and don't like people petting her face or in her face. ESPECIALLY children. Not after Ella nosed my son in the face. It just made me more aware that dogs just don't always like to be touched in the face.

I remember walking her with her backpack on once and a group of adults leaving a restuarant stopped me and asked why I had the backpack on her. I said that it was nice to have to put her bag of dog poop in so I didn't have to carry it and I could carry her treats in it. I also said the biggest reason is that it provided weight for her and gave her a "job" to do.

God, I go off topic. Anyway, where was I going? Oh yes. I usually do turn her around if I see a dog and walk a different direction with her. But we didn't today. I don't know if that's always a good idea. I mean, UNLESS the dog is off leash or something. She is going to have to learn how to behave even when other dogs are around. It's real life. We walked her today and right as we were crossing the street from the alley, a boxer and her family (same boxer from yesterday) came rounding the corner into the alley. Caught us off guard and we had to get out of the way and as soon as they rounded the corner two dogs that were behind a fence came barking. It was MAD. The next house had another 2 dogs. My poor dog was checked out of reality for like a block. Boxers are apparently a very popular breed in my neighborhood. I can think of 3 different ones just within three streets of me.

I, like you, never had the intent to adopt a pit bull. I was looking for shelters in the Chicago area and Furry Friends Foundation popped up in my internet search. I clicked on their site and was looking through the dogs and found Ella. And I fell in love with her and that started my research on the breed. Now I love the breed. My SO wants to own no other kind of dog. I, on the other hand, would in the future, like to find a dog a bit more dog friendly. But that's not always a breed thing.
I am reading ALL THE TIME of people's aggressive labs or lab mixes, retrievers, and various other breeds.
Other than my dog's DA, she is the PERFECT dog for me. She doesn't jump on people when they come over or drool on them or demand their attention. Most people come over to my house and want to take Ella home with them. They always tell me how well behaved she is.

Ella and the boxer that she attacked, did not meet in our doorway. Ella pushed past my knee and went out the door. She ran across the street to the dog. But we HAD tried to introduce the two before on leash. The boxer had acted like an idiot, barking, growling, hind leg standing, and lunging at Ella. Ella sat next to me. But when we tried to introduce them, Ella went straight for her face and I pulled her back and made her sit next to me. I knew that the two wouldn't have any chance of meeting ever again. Sure, what the boxer might have "said" to Ella in doggy language, might have been something that Ella remembered, or Ella could have just seen her from the doorway and bolted to attack her because she had the opportunity and it was another dog. I'll never know for sure. My trainer/behavior consultant thinks that Ella attacked her because of the dog's previous rude behavior, but she also thinks that Ella is at best dog selective. In other words, if Ella was not DA and the boxer did all that rude behavior, then Ella might have been forgiving. But because Ella is DA or dog selective, that was just an invite to be attacked. No excusing Ella's behavior, just giving possible reasoning.