not sure about posting this...

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I know my dogs too.  I know that when someone gets a wild hair and I'm home ONE word will stop any crap.  What I do not know is what would happen if I were NOT here to say that one word.  And I will NEVER find out.  My gsds do NOT get the opportunity to get a wild hair when they are home alone.  They are crated and will remain so for their own safety from a number of things, including each other.

 
Too bad that ONE word doesn't work with us humans.[]

Hehehe!!  Ed, have you not noticed that when threads start to get out of line I will quite often pop in to post "ENOUGH" or "LEAVE IT"?  Once in awhile it DOES work.....

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Hehehe!!  Ed, have you not noticed that when threads start to get out of line I will quite often pop in to post "ENOUGH" or "LEAVE IT"?  Once in awhile it DOES work.....

[sm=rotfl.gif]
 
ETA words, because I just read the rules and smilie only posts are not encouraged. []

Yes, there are a few stories about these dogs that didn't end well but in my opinion, there is no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners. 

Sorry, I have to disagree here.  In large part it is true, but irresponsible breeders can (deliberately or not) breed for strong , uncontrollable, human-aggressive (HA) tendancies (which is my definition of "bad dog") or even psychotic behavior.  Bad owners can also so severely damage a dog that it becomes permanently sychotic.

The genes for "wild" behavior are still there in our pets.  They have just been turned off by selective breeding (controlled by nature or by man), so irresponsible breeding can turn them back on again. 

All responsible breeders diligently breed away from this HA behavior.  Unfortunately, there is an irresponsible group of pit bull breeders who do not and for pit bulls this is more evident than with most other breeds.

We have

• well-bred pit bulls who are treated well
  
• well-bred pit bulls who are mistreated
  
• irresponsibly-bred pit bulls
  
• mongrel pit bulls
  
• dogs people mistake for pit bulls

How do we get people to understand that well-bred, well treated it bulls are no more HA than other breeds?  How do we get people to stop blaming the well-bred pit bulls for the actions of the other groups?  I sure wish I had an answer.

I wonder what kind of reputation some of the small breeds would have if the animals were big enough to inflict more serious damage?
 
ETA: Edited to differentiate between well treated and abused properly-bred pit bulls.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I know my dogs too.  I know that when someone gets a wild hair and I'm home ONE word will stop any crap.  What I do not know is what would happen if I were NOT here to say that one word.  And I will NEVER find out.  My gsds do NOT get the opportunity to get a wild hair when they are home alone.  They are crated and will remain so for their own safety from a number of things, including each other.

I think that is precisely it for me - I don't want to find out what would happen if I let them work things out on their own. Might be ok? Of course - but is that a risk *I* am willing to take? The results if they are NOT ok is just something I couldn't live with.

thank you, janet, for saying what i really wanted to say but was too emotionally tied up in the topic to say.
 
and sooner, i was posing the amstaffy thing as more of a general question than it came out.
 
and fisher, i have to say that i absolutely agree with every word you said. 
 
maybe what i really hope to gain out of posting this topic is this:
 
if it were a perfect world, and only reputable breeders were breeding pits, amstaffs, and their other DA cousins, do we think it's possible to "breed out" the DA?  obviously, this could take generations, but do we think it's possible?  that's what i really want to know.  and i posed amstaffy as an example because i wonder if, through generations of breeding through tempermant, there might come a day when this issue was ancient history.....

Janet rose-

Who is breeding pit bulls to be HA?

To my understanding, most pit bulls that are irresponsibly bred for bad doing, are bred to be dogs that fight other dogs.
I wasn't aware that pit bulls are being bred for HA traits. That's news to me. I know that some get these dogs and make them HA, which takes a LOT of abuse because it is so uncharacteristic for pit bulls to be human aggressive, I never knew that they were intentionally being bred to with human aggressive traits. That's some REAL breeding being undone there.

That's mostly what breaks my heart when I think about human aggressive pit bulls. They have to be seriously abused and intentionally MADE to be human aggressive. On the other hand, they do NOT have to be abused to be dog aggressive. THAT has been bred in them for generations.

ORIGINAL: badrap
if it were a perfect world, and only reputable breeders were breeding pits, amstaffs, and their other DA cousins, do we think it's possible to "breed out" the DA? obviously, this could take generations, but do we think it's possible? that's what i really want to know. and i posed amstaffy as an example because i wonder if, through generations of breeding through tempermant, there might come a day when this issue was ancient history.....

You know what, badrap? I posted this EXACT same question on the pit bull forums I visit. I got a couple of opinions on the matter. I got that it would be an excellent thing to try and accomplish and the other opinion I got was that the fear of breeding what the pit bull IS out of it would happen if the DA was intentionally bred out of the breed. A lot feared the pit bull losing it's "gameness", changing the breed entirely.
It's a VERY touchy subject and I'm glad you asking it here, because I asked it on an actual die hard pit bull forum and I got linked to a bunch of different things and VERY strong opinions on it and, let's just say, I think they'll be gentler to you here than the pit bull forums were to me[]
After making that thread, I am left not knowing what to think. A lot the posters said that instead of trying to change what the pit bull IS, people should learn about the pit bull and how to properly handle the breed and accept the breed for what it is.

Who is breeding pit bulls to be HA?

Perhaps I am misinformed, but I was under the impression that some unsavory characters were breeding and keeping pit bulls to be aggressive guard dogs. This could be part of the oh-so-prevalent misinformation accompanying the breed, however.

ORIGINAL: Cita

Who is breeding pit bulls to be HA?

Perhaps I am misinformed, but I was under the impression that some unsavory characters were breeding and keeping pit bulls to be aggressive guard dogs. This could be part of the oh-so-prevalent misinformation accompanying the breed, however.

no, no, no. Don't get me wrong. I just re-read my post and realized how it could be taken. I am really asking if there are people indeed breeding pit bulls to be HA. I mean, if so, I am out of the loop on it, but I am NOT saying that it isn't happening. Heck, nothing that some people could do, especially to this breed, would surprise me at this point.

no cita, i do not think you are misinformed.
 
there are plenty of people out there desperately trying to get HA pits.  and they are succeeding wonderfully, if you watch the news. it's a terrible, horrible, no good thing to do, and it makes me want to support madatory sterilization...
 
perhaps i am misinformed, but it is my understanding that dog fighting was not the original purpose for the amstaff nor the apbt.  it is my understanding that they were bred to hunt hogs or to fell large livestock, and that the "gameness" they acquired by being bred for these assignments translated very well to the fighting ring.  it is my understanding that the people who took apbt and their cousins and threw them into the ring with each other are the same "unsavory" characters who breed them for HA today.

ORIGINAL: badrap

no cita, i do not think you are misinformed.

there are plenty of people out there desperately trying to get HA pits. and they are succeeding wonderfully, if you watch the news. it's a terrible, horrible, no good thing to do, and it makes me want to support madatory sterilization...

perhaps i am misinformed, but it is my understanding that dog fighting was not the original purpose for the amstaff nor the apbt. it is my understanding that they were bred to hunt hogs or to fell large livestock, and that the "gameness" they acquired by being bred for these assignments translated very well to the fighting ring. it is my understanding that the people who took apbt and their cousins and threw them into the ring with each other are the same "unsavory" characters who breed them for HA today.

No, you aren't misinformed either. When I talk about pit bulls being bred for fighting, I mean the most recent breeding purposes. If I've stated differently, I apologize. But since now I'm being informed that they are being bred to be HA, I have to change my "more recent" breeding info.

UGH. People make ME SICK.

you must live in a much nicer neighborhood than me[].  and maybe you've never watched the real gansta hip hop videos.........
 
it is TRULY sickening, to force a breed down a path that probably will lead to BSL.  unless these people can be stopped (and HOW???) it doesn't look too good.[]

All I have to say on this thread is that I trust badrap to do what is in the best interests of her dogs.


She is just that kinda chick.

well thank you!  and my dogs thank you!