not sure about posting this...

badrap, I don't think anyone is calling you ignorant on this thread.  In fact I think everyone on this thread is pretty much in agreement.  We are all stating that careful management, which you practice, is key to ensuring that a dog (pit or not) will not attack and kill or maim another dog.

You stated that you're watching your dogs at the dog park.  Most people don't do this.  You watch your dog's body language at all times-again most people haven't a clue.  (When X was about 10 months old I saw him posturing with a GSD and sprinted over to break up the posturing.  The GSD owners kept telling me that everything was ok-they hadn't a clue about what was happening.  Yet if the GSD had been attacked it would have been MY fault.) 

I agree with your "Judge the deed not the breed" statement to an extent.  But if I'm a postman and I have to deliver a package to the front door and there's Fila between me and the front door, I'm not waiting for the "deed" to happen.  I think that's the sentiment that everyone is sharing.  "Expect the best but be prepared for the worst." 

I apologize if you think we were insulting you.

there is only one poster who called me, and very specifically, willfully ignorant.  that's the only thing i'm mad about.
 
i'm otherwise completely unoffended and no apology is necessary.[]
 
above everything else in my life, i value the free exchange of ideas.  this is one of those.  i think i didn't communicate well what my point was, and that's my fault.  name-calling, however, is not part of the free exchange.

ORIGINAL: badrap
[]

above everything else in my life, i value the free exchange of ideas.  this is one of those.  i think i didn't communicate well what my point was, and that's my fault.  name-calling, however, is not part of the free exchange.

Agreed, unless it's a really good name![]

i challenge you all to call me the most creative names that you can!!![]

When owners remain willfully ignorant of their breed's traits because they want their dogs to be "nice" or "normal," this can create a lot of problems for the breed.

What is my business is this willful ignorance. I believe that pit owners who remain wilfully ignorant of their breed's tendency toward dog aggression are doing real harm to their breed, and are making BSL more popular by setting their dogs up to fail.

I made these two statements, and I stand by them. I see no namecalling here. I do, on the other hand, see a lot of emotional sensitivity around a subject that cannot be emotional--it's not good for any of the dogs involved.

I can't apologize for these statements, but I can contextualize them for you, badrap. I have owned a really dangerously aggressive dog (not a pit, FWIW). And so I know how much emotional baggage comes with owning a dog that is (or is perceived to be) aggressive. And what happened to me was I wound up spending a lot of emotional energy telling myself that my dog was the dog I wanted her to be. I wanted my dog to be nice and like other dogs and be a good dog run citizen because I would be those things if I were a dog. And in wanting all this, I was very blind to the reality that my dog was not good dog run material, that she was a total time bomb.

What I am saying is that even without any breed-specific guidance I could have saved myself about $3000 in other people's vet bills and a whole lot of shame if I hadn't been wilfully ignorant myself. I am not calling myself a name right now--I am saying that my behavior and thinking at that time was wilfully ignorant.

And I am saying that your initial post, which sounds so similar to what a good friend of mine used to say about her pits before they started attacking eachother, and which sounds so similar to the logic I was using with my own dog, is wilfully ignorant of the fact that you simply can't trust a pit not to fight.

I am not calling you an ignorant person. And I definitely understand why anyone (including myself) would want to remain wilfully ignorant about their own dog's potential for aggression. But it's not good for the dogs. We need to see our dogs very clearly if we are going to be good leaders to them. I am saying this as someone who has been wilfully ignorant enough to let my own dog almost kill another dog. I wrote what I wrote not to provoke you, but because it really sucks to figure this one out the hard way, like I did. It's expensive and it creates a lot of guilt, and it's really really scary.

Ed (hope you don't mind me using your first name[] )

Filas are also more known for being more human aggressive, where as pitbulls are truly human loving and human friendly.
Filas are considered guardian dogs, pitbulls aren't.
That's part of the problem (not you, I know you know that pitbulls are extremely human loving, but your post led me to a thought), people need to realize that pitbulls ARE human friendly and that HA is different than DA. That's why educating people on pitbulls is important. I think that's why SO many pitbull lovers and rescues talk about DA and keeping pitbulls separated from eachother. It's important that since DA can be an issue with a lot of pitbulls, that we make sure (for the rep of the breed and, simply, to tell the truth) that people understand that those pitbulls that ARE human aggressive, well, that's unnatural. Whoever made them that way had to do it in an extremely CRUEL way because it's out of breed characteristic for pitbulls to be human aggressive. They are NOT natural guarders, UNLESS it's guarding from another dog. I have NOT a doubt in mind that even if Ella did NOT have the DA issues she DOES have, if another dog were to come up to us with the intent to hurt me, she'd correct that situation fast.

and I don't want my last post to come across as I'm saying that filas ARE human aggressive. I know that they are more reactive to strangers (humans) than a pitbull would be, normally.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

Ed (hope you don't mind me using your first name[] )

Filas are also more known for being more human aggressive, where as pitbulls are truly human loving and human friendly.
Filas are considered guardian dogs, pitbulls aren't.
That's part of the problem (not you, I know you know that pitbulls are extremely human loving, but your post led me to a thought), people need to realize that pitbulls ARE human friendly and that HA is different than DA. That's why educating people on pitbulls is important. I think that's why SO many pitbull lovers and rescues talk about DA and keeping pitbulls separated from eachother. It's important that since DA can be an issue with a lot of pitbulls, that we make sure (for the rep of the breed and, simply, to tell the truth) that people understand that those pitbulls that ARE human aggressive, well, that's unnatural. Whoever made them that way had to do it in an extremely CRUEL way because it's out of breed characteristic for pitbulls to be human aggressive. They are NOT natural guarders, UNLESS it's guarding from another dog. I have NOT a doubt in mind that even if Ella did NOT have the DA issues she DOES have, if another dog were to come up to us with the intent to hurt me, she'd correct that situation fast.

Chewbacca...I know that Filas and Pitties are not the same.  I was saying that waiting to take precautions until after the deed is the wrong approach.  Reaction does not solve problems, proaction does.  In other words: manage the environment and the situation carefully in order to avoid a circumstance where "judging the deed" occurs.

Do I know that DA and HA are totally different?  Absolutely.  I have a semi DA dog.  She pretty much will ignore humans or greet them in a semi-disinterested way.  However, if I had a front yard and the postman needed to come to the house-he'd be dumb to open the gate and proceed in if she's in the front yard. 

So I'm saying that precaution and preparedness are mainstays of responsible dog ownership regardless of the breed. 
 
ETA:  I don't mind you calling me by my name ![]

Here I go, being a big mouth!  I have two pits!  Very lovable dogs.  I am home with them about 98% of the time.  When I do leave, I put the puppy in a kennel.  Otherwise, he'd pee and poop everywhere.  My other pit is left out of the kennel along with my boxer/lab mix.  I know these dogs.  I am around them so much.  They love one another and while the pit is capable of seriously injuring or killing my other dog, I truely believe that she would never do it.  They have grown up together.  Yes, ocassionally, they have a disagreement and growl and bark at one another but shortly after, they are best buds again.  I just don't get why people have to immediately jump to conclusions about pits.  Way, way back in the history of Pit bulls, they were originally bred for hunting bears and wild boars.  They were called "bear baiters" cause thes dogs do not give up.  Then some moron got the bright idea to put them in the ring to fight, they saw what these dogs could do, and that was the end.  Now, everywhere you look, people are so against pits.  Yes, there are a few stories about these dogs that didn't end well but in my opinion, there is no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners.  These dogs don't just see another dog and think hmmm. I wounder if I could kill him.  Dogs do not think like that.  Dogs live in the "now"  they could care less about what happened yesterday or what's going to happen tomorrow.  As for that story, I don't know what the deal was.  The owner could have been doing something to those dogs or maybe he didn't.  We will never really know.  Only he will truely know the whole story

Bullymom, his story sounded like yours.

He knew his dogs. They "they get along well. Just minor scraps over triggers like toys or bones etc". He "would leave the dogs for longer periods of time, always without incident".

Then he came home to a dead dog.

I don't understand how a responsible bully owner can choose to ignore this HUGE part of the breed. People don't *think* their dogs will kill each other - but WHY would you take that chance? Dog aggression has been bred into them for many many more generations than it has been bred out - not to mention only a VERY select few breeders are breeding it out anyway. The percentage of responsibly bred pits is miniscule and the percentage of temperament bred pits is microscopic.

The first rule of responsible pit ownership: NEVER TRUST A PIT NOT TO FIGHT.
#2 - Even if they don't start a fight, you can be sure they'll finish it.

ORIGINAL: badrap

i hear these arguments and find them completely logical.  especially yours about overpopulation. 

i can't help myself, though.  i really believe that some of this actually contributes to, or is a manifestation of,  a BSL climate.  every article that specifically lists pits as "need to be separated or they might kill each other" is a cannon fodder for the people who want to exterminate bully breeds.  it refuses to account for people like amstaffy who breed for tempermant.

Umm, I believe that Jamie (amstaffy) advocates seperating dogs when unattended as well......

I can direct you to entire boards full of responsible pittie owners that do not leave their dogs together. 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

Ed (hope you don't mind me using your first name[] )

Filas are also more known for being more human aggressive, where as pitbulls are truly human loving and human friendly.
Filas are considered guardian dogs, pitbulls aren't.
That's part of the problem (not you, I know you know that pitbulls are extremely human loving, but your post led me to a thought), people need to realize that pitbulls ARE human friendly and that HA is different than DA. That's why educating people on pitbulls is important. I think that's why SO many pitbull lovers and rescues talk about DA and keeping pitbulls separated from eachother. It's important that since DA can be an issue with a lot of pitbulls, that we make sure (for the rep of the breed and, simply, to tell the truth) that people understand that those pitbulls that ARE human aggressive, well, that's unnatural. Whoever made them that way had to do it in an extremely CRUEL way because it's out of breed characteristic for pitbulls to be human aggressive. They are NOT natural guarders, UNLESS it's guarding from another dog. I have NOT a doubt in mind that even if Ella did NOT have the DA issues she DOES have, if another dog were to come up to us with the intent to hurt me, she'd correct that situation fast.

Chewbacca...I know that Filas and Pitties are not the same. I was saying that waiting to take precautions until after the deed is the wrong approach. Reaction does not solve problems, proaction does. In other words: manage the environment and the situation carefully in order to avoid a circumstance where "judging the deed" occurs.

Do I know that DA and HA are totally different? Absolutely. I have a semi DA dog. She pretty much will ignore humans or greet them in a semi-disinterested way. However, if I had a front yard and the postman needed to come to the house-he'd be dumb to open the gate and proceed in if she's in the front yard.

So I'm saying that precaution and preparedness are mainstays of responsible dog ownership regardless of the breed.

ETA: I don't mind you calling me by my name ![]

Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't directing my post at you. My post was meant to be a general posting, it was just the fila thing that stuck a thought in my head. I know that you know about pitties. [] And DA and HA.

I'm sorry[]

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't directing my post at you. My post was meant to be a general posting, it was just the fila thing that stuck a thought in my head. I know that you know about pitties. [] And DA and HA.

I'm sorry[]

 
No apology necessary at all![][]
 
I probably should have picked a different breed in the first place...like a Scottie or something...lol.  Either way I don't want to be the postman!

I know my dogs too.  I know that when someone gets a wild hair and I'm home ONE word will stop any crap.  What I do not know is what would happen if I were NOT here to say that one word.  And I will NEVER find out.  My gsds do NOT get the opportunity to get a wild hair when they are home alone.  They are crated and will remain so for their own safety from a number of things, including each other.