not sure about posting this...

This topic really frustrates me.

Pits are one of my favorite favorite breeds. They are prone to dog aggression. This is not a value judgement, it is a fact. It does not diminish their fantasticness as dogs. Perhaps this is best examined in the context of some less loaded examples:

*Sighthounds are wonderful animals. They have a known tendency to kill cats and other small animals that they consider prey. This is because they were bred to hunt and kill small animals. If your sighthound kills your neighbor's cat, you should not be surprised.

*Terriers are prone to predation and animal aggression in general, because they were originally bred to hunt and kill small animals. If your terrier brings you rat presents or jumps into wastebaskets to kill rats on the street, that's no surprise. Terriers are ratters.

*Pits are terriers, and they have also been bred to fight and kill other dogs. They are, therefore, prone to interdog aggression. It should be no surprise to any pit bull owner that their dog may not like other dogs, or may decide one day that a dog they used to like is now a target for lethal aggression.

This does not make pits bad dogs or less than other breeds. They have also been bred for phenomenally low human aggression. This is why pits are excellent dogs for families with small children.

But you know what? When owners remain willfully ignorant of their breed's traits because they want their dogs to be "nice" or "normal," this can create a lot of problems for the breed. BSL happens when people like the OP take their pits to small dog runs, which can be fine for their dog for years and then one day just not be fine anymore. As an urban dog owner who frequents small dog runs, I have to say that I have encountered a lot of dogfights, and that the bloody, scary dogfights tend to involve pits.

And I can also tell you that a common, and frustrating, scenario is that a pit owner will come to a dog run expecting her dog to be fine with other dogs because that's the dog *she* wants the dog to be, and will ignore lots of intense scuffles that would make me rethink taking my dog to the run, and will be the *only* surprised one on the day when her dog makes another dog go to the emergency vet (and makes just about everyone in the run pee their pants).

I am totally opposed to BSL, and I leave these scenarios thinking that pits should be banned from dog runs, for the good of the breed. Because their owners cannot be trusted. That's terrible, isn't it? Wouldn't it be better if we trusted owners to know their breed and own their dogs responsibly?

Whether or not the OP separates her dogs when not around is not my business. Most responsible pit owners I know own a couple of dogs, and all of them separate their dogs.

What is my business is this willful ignorance. I believe that pit owners who remain wilfully ignorant of their breed's tendency toward dog aggression are doing real harm to their breed, and are making BSL more popular by setting their dogs up to fail.

Let me just talk about my Ella.
I got Ella from Furry Friends Foundation in Chicago. We went for an introduction with a behaviorist so he could watch her around my kid. I was told that she was FINE with other dogs. I even remember asking. They told me she had been in obedience training class with several other dogs and did fine.

I got Ella and I had read up on the breed and KNEW not to leave her around other dogs and I was EVER SO CAUTIOUS with her as far as when I walked her and when we were around other dogs. She gets along FABULOUSLY with my in-laws' dog. I thought, "OK, she's possibly OK with other dogs." but I never wanted to risk it. I had read that if a pit bull decides to attack another dog, there often is NO warning.

Unfortunately, I found out just how dog aggressive my dog is the awful, heartbreaking way, when she pushed passed my kne through my front door and attacked my neighbor's female boxer. I think I told you this story already, badrap, but this is the first time I have posted about it here. Awful scenario because she slipped out of her martingale collar when I ran up to grab her and it all happened so fast that I didn't even see the boxer until my dog made it across the street and was on her biting the crap out of her face. I had no tools to get my dog off of the boxer and what felt like two hours (which was 2 minutes) another neighbor came and broke up the fight with broomsticks. I had no other option but to take Ella's mouth and pry it open with my hands. Stupid? YES. But I never got bitten, thank god.
I made some adjustments to make sure she'll NEVER get out again, but I never wish this upon any dog owner. The boxer lived and was fine, but she was injured. We paid for the damage, no questions asked, but we were terrified because we thought for sure that AC was going to come take Ella away from us. And I think for a week afterwards I cried every day for that poor boxer.

Even though we're working with our trainer/behavior consultant on trying to socialize Ella, we think she's just never going to be OK around other dogs. Either that or she is SO dog selective that we'll never know which dogs she'll be OK with and which ones she won't. I'm always VERY alert when walking her and I carry direct stop, a breaking stick, extra leash, extra collar, my cell phone, and her bad cuz ball. All in case we encounter an off leash dog because my dog, unfortunately, will KILL any dog that comes up to her. I know this. She checks out of reality when another dog is around. The only thing that can get her attention is her ball. And it's calming for her. She can be around another dog IF she has her ball next to her.

I would NEVER leave two dogs alone together, but two pit bulls? NEVER.

*Sighthounds are wonderful animals. They have a known tendency to kill cats and other small animals that they consider prey. This is because they were bred to hunt and kill small animals. If your sighthound kills your neighbor's cat, you should not be surprised.

Thanks for touching on this.  Sighthounds are also prone to killing other small dogs, ferrets or any other small animals.  Certain sighthounds, namely Pharaoh Hounds- have a propensity for dog aggression.  It is possible to manage but impossible to avoid.

I'm sorry for this guy and his pitties.  I know that I can leave my two alone and they won't kill each other-but I have a good friend (Xerxes breeder) who cannot let specific dogs/bitches out with each other because, despite being raised together, a few of them have decided that the others need death. 

A bit of background on PH dog aggression:  In general the PH won't confront the other dog right away.  They won't even do it while both dogs are under supervision.  They will wait for that moment of human distraction and then they will ambush the other dog.  Or they will wait for a stumble or a misstep on the part of the intended victim.  And PHs never forget.  So they must be managed very carefully.  This is why I will never have more than two of these wonderful dogs at the same time.  The main difference between the PH and the Pittie dogfight is that PHs will bite, bite, bite and do it repeatedly-no holding on and shaking or suffocating.  They tend to bite 1,000 times and then some, if it's not broken up.

All in all, careful management with all dogs is a necessity.  Any two dogs can and probably will fight given the right set of circumstances.

Badrap, I know how you are feeling.  It's not right that Pit get the bad en of the deal so to speak.  I love my babies and I just don't understand why people have to judge them before they know the whole deal on the breed.  My dad is that way.  He is terrified of my dogs and they haven't shown any aggresion towards him.  He hears what they say on the news and he takes it to heart.  I've tried to convince him otherwise but he is stubborn.

Badrap, I really understand your reasoning on this, but not every APBT is able to be left alone with other dogs.  You know that.  If you have a hound dog, you don't show him a rabbit and let him off-leash.  If you have a DA APBT, you do not leave him unsupervised with another dog.  It's part of the breed.  The problem is that these dogs have tendencies which in any breed would make people nervous.  By crating his dogs when he left the house, he did what he needed to do to keep his dogs safe.  By getting lax and allowing his dogs to stay free in the house, he wasn't doing them any favors. 

It is sad that it is that way, but I do think the positive stories are just as common as the others, they just don't stand out as much or get as much attention.
 
Sooner great point...and I also think that if this is a breed specific board you need to also count in that people with the more difficult breeds NEED A PLACE TO TELL THESE STORIES. They need to feel safe sharing their worries and fears and even the bad things if they happen....as a former Akita person I can tell you some of the stuff that goes on with them would curl your hair. People outside of certain breeds will simply never ever fully understand what it's like living with them, or what the result of a "bad day" can be.
 
There's my .02.

If it makes you feel any better, I will NEVER leave two dogs unattended together, regardless of breed. I've seen some NASTY dog fights. Heck, I have the scars to prove that I've been there, and that I'm an idiot. Leaving dogs together is something I'll never feel comfortable doing.

The two little dogs I have now will happily tear right into each other. Teenie and I bare the scars of this. Teenie carries a notch on her ear, and I have toothmarks up my right arm. The dogs are now completely seperated. I don't doubt that Emma could, or that she would, win. Teenie doesn't back down. She's half the height, and maybe 2/3 the weight. She can't win. She won't back down. The end result would be tragic. No bullies in sight, but terriers through and through.

I don't understand why you (OP) are upset. It's standard practice for many people to routinely crate or cage their dogs (which of course keeps them separated) when they aren't home for a variety of reasons. It doesn't "destabilize" the pack.
 
 If you have an aggressive dog and go around pretending the dog isn't potentially dangerous, the dog doesn't become less aggressive.  I'm fully aware that one of my very large dogs could easily kill a small dog, and I am careful about their interactions with small dogs.

ORIGINAL: badrap

before you read on, this is a terrible story.  it will probably ruin your day.  it ruined mine.  but i want to see how people here respond to it.  please, faint of heart, don't read.

i participate sparingly on another board.  today i read a story about a guy who had 3 pits, 2 males and a female.  he was "careful" with them, separate kennels and supervision.  well, one day he wasn't so careful and the female actually killed one of the males while he was at work.

when i read this, i wanted to throw up.  mainly because i really, really hate hearing about pits who do terrible things.  but also because i feel quite strongly that the female's behavior was a direct result of a projection by the owner.  by projection, i mean that i wonder if this guy wanted to have "badass" dogs and thus treated them as one would treat "red-zone" dogs instead of trying to rehab them.  sometimes i think the more dangerous you think a dog is, the more dangerous it becomes.  i  know my dogs are physically capable of killing each other, but never ever in the deepest recesses of my brain would i believe that they would do so.  also, in one of the repsonses, someone said, "no dogs should ever be left alone together.  any dogs can kill each other."  frankly, i think this is a bunch of malarkey.  just because dogs CAN kill each other doesn't mean they will.

thoughts?  am i way out of line in thinking this guy might have caused this by intentionally keeping an unstable pack?  how do you all handle your multidog homes?

I disagree - responsible pit bull owners say repeatedly NEVER TRUST A PIT BULL NOT TO FIGHT.

Unfortuntely, the pit bull was bred and cultivated FOR dog aggression - and ignoring this aspect of the breed does any dog a disservice. No pit bull should be left unattended with other dogs in the house, no pit bull should be going to dog parks, etc. Not because they are bad dogs, but because 1) the dog aggression is not always apparent and can come out as they mature 2) they are strong dogs and a fight can happen in an instant, and even experienced owners can have trouble separating them.
. And the ultimate - if anything does happen, even if it isnt the pits fault, they WILL be blamed.

I live in a house with three male dobes. 99% of any reputable rescues and breeders will tell you that multiple males in any house is playing with danger - and it is. My house is a segregated household, and one of the three literally has only 20 minutes contact with the other dogs, MAX, a day, and it is strictly controlled and at least two peopl eare present at all times. And my dogs have NEVER fought, my dogs have never attacked each other, my dogs have never had a problem - but I can clearly see where it COULD be a problem by reading their behaviors and noticing that one dog has a lower tolerance, one dog is more willing to bite and lacks inhibition, etc.

My dobermans are not left alone with each other - all it takes is ONE mistake on my part and my dogs could pay the price. Two of the males get along just fine when I am around - they can play in the yard, they can hang out in the living room together, they sleep in my bedroom together (one on bed, one at foot of bed). They cannot eat together, they cannot ride loose in the car together, and they are NEVER LEFT LOOSE together in the house. If I am not around, they are NEVER together, because they need to be supervised at all times. I need to watch for the flick of a lip, the freeze, the eyes, the ear position.

  Two of the male dobermans in my house will never be off leash in public around other animals. My youngest male is currently ok, but I have no delusion that at some point this will change - same sex aggression is written IN THE BREED STANDARD. This youngest male is in hard core training as my next competition dog, and even as he matures I am sure his working abilities will not change - but what he is capable of when he is expected to be walking is not the same as what I think he will do when relaxed.
This male is laid back and fun with other dogs- he does not start fights. But at 85 lbs (immature!) - he WILL finish a fight if one is picked with him, and is that fair? Why put my dog in a situation in which if something DOES occur - EVEN IF NOT HIS FAULT - he will be the one blamed purely because of his breed?


Would I love to let my dogs play all day with each other and run loose all over the place? Sure - I am sure it makes a very lovely, easy lifestyle to never have to worry or be concerned about your dogs wellbeing in that way. But it would be irresponsible of me, and a detriment to my breed and any other dog out there. I spent 5 years living with a doberman that bit PEOPLE - the segregated lifestyle I lead now is a piece of cake after that!

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

as a former Akita person I can tell you some of the stuff that goes on with them would curl your hair. People outside of certain breeds will simply never ever fully understand what it's like living with them, or what the result of a "bad day" can be.
 
There's my .02.

 
You said a giant mouthful there Gina.  It's not just the results of a bad day, but perhaps a "bad couple of minutes."  Akitas, as you know, take care of business and then just a couple of seconds later they're back to normal-if the situation is resolved.  Even someone that has had an Akita in his life can't imagine what a "bad day" could be like.  (I could tell you a couple of "bad moment" stories that would make your hair curl-or straighten as the case might pertain to you.)

Was it in the other end of the leash?  she talks about how dogs run around with the equivalent of sharp knives in their mouths. You'd never hand out knives to a bunch of reschoolers, then give them some toys to play with, and then go off shopping and expect everything to be fine when you come back. 

Anyone ever watch the Discovery Channel Motorcycle Mania series about Jesse James and West Coast Choppers? I think it was the first season when he had two pitties at his shop. They came in to open the shop one morning and one of the dogs had been killed by the other dog.

i really resent being called willfully ignorant.  i presented this topic because i was interested to hear what everyone else thought of it.  i don't think that calling me names is productive at all.  if you have a personal problem with me, then you should address me directly, and not as though i was a child too stupid to understand you.
 
i am well aware of the risks involved in owning my dogs.  i am not who you seem to have judged me as.  i do not allow my dogs in small dog runs, and i absolutely never allow my dogs in a dog park when there are more than 2 or 3 other dogs there, and on top of that, i personally require a 2 dog to 1 owner ratio and no children and won't enter if it's any other way.  3 dogs, one owner, and i'm walking right by that park without a second glance.  even at that, it is not outside my field of vision that i might not be able to stop a fight between 2 dogs.  if at any time i witness my dogs approaching other dogs, i call them back immediately.  i am on top of them all the time.  if they don't recall, then i go get them, and we leave immediately.  if we are there alone, which is most of the time since i work a weird schedule, i keep my eyes on the door all the time.  90% the time, i leave the park if someone else comes.  i don't talk on my phone, i don't bring a book.  i am there for one reason only, and that is to get my dogs the excersise that they deserve.  if i had a yard, i wouldn't go to the park.
 
and you're right: what i do with my own dogs in my own home is my business only, but technically, since i posted it here, i made it everyone else's business as well. 
 
it is my extremely unpopular opinion that dogs who have shown absolutely no dog aggression at all should not be treated as though they have, regardless of their breed.  that doesn't mean i'm ignoring the breed's propensity.  on the contrary, it means i am hyper-sensitive to aggressive behavior in a way that people who own other breeds are not.  it means that i see a wagging tail and know that it doesn't always mean fun.  it means that i study my dogs very very carefully and am very much in tune to their body language.  it means that when i look for a job, the first thing i say to my prospective employer is:  my dogs come first.  without exception.  it means i work strange hours so that they are without human company for a maximum of 2-3 hours a day.  i do this because i don't think that any dog deserves to live the majority of his life in a crate or a kennel.  i happen to think that crates and kennels can create and exacerbate aggressive personalities.  i see that one person here chose to completely ignore the fact that i do crate one of my dogs 95% of the time when i'm not home.
 
so far, i notice that nobody has addressed the issue of breeding amstaffs or pits for temperment.  i am curious as to whether anyone thinks that reputable breeders may be able to have an influence on the breed as a whole.
 
go ahead and wave your anit-BSL flags, but there are a few people here who are like armchair liberals:  i'll send all the money you ask for but don't ask me to come on the march."  or let me put it this way:  "i love pitties, i just don't want them near MY dog"  because that's sure what it sounds like. 

I'm going to say THIS about myself first ... and then make my point.  I'm well into "middle-age" and I'm a big lady.  Frankly, people see me and assume I'm 'big' because I sit around eating Twinkies and bon-bons all day long.  Not the case -- I've had rheumatoid arthritis and major dermatitis for all my adult life and exercise is incredibly difficult for someone who can't get into a chlorinated pool and whose own sweat is like acid.  Does that change people's feelings who 'see' me for the first time?  Nope.  I live with it.  I overcome it.  I don't let it get to me.
 
I have a basset-beagle mix.  She's nose-driven as any dog I've ever known -- and she's not blindly obedient -- she MAKES CHOICES.  And often ... not wise ones.  But it's part of who she is.  I love her.  I laugh at her.  But she's NEVER off-leash.  And usually she's on leash even in our own fenced-in back yard cos the girl just plain won't "come" when you need/want her to.
 
and vocal?  Oh man, alive.  Maria Callas shoulda had such a voice!
 
It's part of who she is.  I try really hard to make sure people thinking of adopting a nose-driven breed can see reality. 
 
My point is this - you can get totally bent out of shape about your breed.  YOU know them, YOU love them -- not all will. And frankly, most folks who are proponents of BSL don't have a brain nor a place to put one. 
 
So you pick your battles and you make *sure* you care for your own dog in such a way that puts you above reproach ALL the time.
 
I have a good friend who does pit rescue -- predominantly he's one of the ones they call in when a fighting ring is discovered and someone has to figure out "can any of these dogs be saved"?  Essentially he taught me that the dog-aggressiveness that certain pits show literally can't be explained in human terms.  What causes a dog to go 'hot' (aggressive) literally can't ever be predicted.  Some never ever do.  Some may not until they are older, and some invisible thing sets them off.  Some go hot with a breath of air.  The only 'fault' is with the owner/guardian who doesn't take sufficient precautions to avoid problems. 
 
In his own home he has a system of doors so no two dogs ever 'meet' without a human present.  Not ever.  not even for a moment.  Not even when someone is 'home' -- he simply feels it is incumbent on HIM to make absolutely, positively **certain** that the opportunity to go 'hot' never happens when they can hurt each other. 
 
When counseling others he simply advises people to only have ONE dog.  (not one pit and one something else ... but just one dog)  His logic is pretty flawless.  Some dogs are pack oriented and thrive with other dogs.  Some dogs prefer a human pack, and pits are that way.  They have been bred for many many years to be submissive to people and often horrible breeders have bred them to be aggressive to other dogs.  So simply do what your dog would love -- be that dog's "only" pack. 
 
As a heavy person I have to 'pay' for the sins of other heavy folks who are slovenly and lazy.  Make me mad?  Yeah.  But exactly who am I hurting if I go on and on about it?  No one but me.  So frankly, it's tough to out-work me.  I pride myself on my work ethic.  I'm not fancy and I"m not gorgeous -- but I'm good at a few things.  So you may want to judge me by how I look, but I'm going to prove otherwise to you.
 
Get the connection??  Much of it is learning to co-exist with your reality and make it 'better' where you can.  Being proactive and making sure you never allow your dog to be in a 'bad' situation goes a long way here.  Giving others good advice to make sure you represent the breed responsibly also does.
 
Make sense?

i'm really fired up at being called willfully ignorant, so i'm going to stop posting here now, but i would like to say this:
 
those idiots on west coast choppers illustrate the f**King roblem PERFECTLY.  who does that??? who leaves their dogs of any breed alone in the garage, completely cut off from human contact???????  it is an absolutely disgusting thing to do and no arguments will change my mind. 
 
this is exactly my point- there are these people out there who claim to "love" pits.  jesse james is one of them.  and yet he chose to treat them like "junkyard dogs".  he capitalized on their aggressive nature to protect his business, and that cost one of his dogs his life.  pop culture, particularly hip hop, outlaw country, and "badass" bikers (rich wannabes collecting a fat paycheck by presenting a persona), wield these dogs as weapons.  as a TV personality, jesse james has a GRAVE responsibility to show his dogs in a positive light.  he failed his dogs, he failed the breed, and he shoved those of us who want the public to know that pits can be loving dogs back years!  if he really loved pits as much as he claims, they would've been a part of his family, not relegated to "guard duty".
 
as long as people continue to portray aggressive pits as "cool", people like me who just want to give a dog a better life or a second chance are going to be stereotyped and punished by the general public.  and frankly, the only place i see people NOT doing that is here on this board, which is why i love it here so much.
 
while i appreciate the dog fight rescuer's methods, i think they are situation appropriate.  these dogs have already been bred and trained to fight each other, and i do believe that there is no hope for them to integrate with ANY other dogs successfully. 
 
judge the deed, not the breed mean literally and exactly what it says.