not sure about posting this...

I have two females that realistically could kill each other... and it's very possible that one day they *would* were they ever left alone together with DH and I gone. I just don't want to take that chance, so they will never be left alone, together. They are not bully breeds.

You know, I just don't know what this guy's motives were, nor do I know the extent of his knowlege or dog savvy. I choose (even with typically non-dog aggressive breeds) to keep my dogs seperate while I am gone, just to be on the safe side. I would imagine that if I had a breed of dogs that had a tendency towards dog aggression I would most certainly find ways to be extra diligent in keeping them apart.

Really, though, it's awfully hard to come to many conclusions not having been involved in that situation. I think sometimes tragic things happen (like this) and the person really had good intentions. Then other times...

ORIGINAL: badrap

i  know my dogs are physically capable of killing each other, but never ever in the deepest recesses of my brain would i believe that they would do so.  also, in one of the repsonses, someone said, "no dogs should ever be left alone together.  any dogs can kill each other."  frankly, i think this is a bunch of malarkey.  just because dogs CAN kill each other doesn't mean they will.

I think I know the post you're referring to, although I'm not active enough on that board to even begin to speculate about the guy and his motives, I do know he was heartbroken and took total responsibility for what happened, he knew that those dogs shouldn't be left together, but he got careless (if we're not talking about the same post, please disregard)

The thing is, any dogs CAN kill each other, but the majority of them WON'T. They'll fight to get their point across and quit. Bully breeds are, sadly, different. Dog-dog aggression and tenacity has been bred into them for so long that they can and do kill when given the opportunity to fight. Since dog-dog aggression is such a tricky thing in the breed -and often rears it's ugly head unexpectedly, after the dog has reached maturity - I don't think bully breeds should ever be left alone together or with any other dogs. Any stimuli that you can't control, whether it be a fight over a toy or something percieved as valuable or just someone ringing the doorbell and getting the dogs excited, could - potentially - wind up in a fight and a fight could mean disaster if no one is home. It's sad because you just don't want to think that could happen, but it does.

That said, I have a rottweiler, a pit mix, a sheltie mix and a lab and the lab is the only one who has started a fight and drawn blood. I don't leave him unattended with any of the others.

in the post i read, the guy really did seem apologetic and bereaved.  i just got a *funny* feeling about the whole thing.  but then, i may be biased because i get a *funny* feeling about a few things on that particular board.
 
i have a really hard time with this issue.  i mean a *really* hard time. i love my dogs like children and really don't want them to ever hurt each other.  at the same time, my position is that actively separating two dogs that get along just fine sort of creates a problem where there wasn't one.  i guess that's what i'm wondering.  in addition, i think, *TRULY* if you think your dogs are going to kill each other, then maybe you should consider re-homing one of them.  my exception to this is real, true to life working dogs and breeders.

at the same time, my position is that actively separating two dogs that get along just fine sort of creates a problem where there wasn't one.  i guess that's what i'm wondering.  in addition, i think, *TRULY* if you think your dogs are going to kill each other, then maybe you should consider re-homing one of them

Lots of pit owners have more than one - they're addictive [] - and I dare say the majority of them keep the dogs separated when they're unattended. It's sad to think how much worse the overpopulation problem would be if every bully breed house had to be a single dog house.

It's not that you truely think the dogs will kill each other, it's that they have the capability and the predispostion to - and you shouldn't give them the opportunity.

Here are a couple of quotes about it:

[linkhttp://www.pbrc.net/fightinfo.html]http://www.pbrc.net/fightinfo.html[/link] NEVER leave Pit Bulls unsupervised with other animals. We can't emphasize this enough. When no one is around to keep an eye on them, the dogs should be safely crated or in separate rooms even if they are best friends. You never know what might trigger a fight in your absence. All canines can fight, but Pit Bulls were bred to never quit. If no one is home to break the fight, the dogs could inflict serious injuries to each other, or worse.

and [linkhttp://www.badrap.org/rescue/multidogs.cfm]http://www.badrap.org/rescue/multidogs.cfm[/link]

It's not that you truely think the dogs will kill each other, it's that they have the capability and the predispostion to - and you shouldn't give them the opportunity.

I think that's totally worth repeating. Maybe even several times. I think lots of folks could benefit from reading that. That's the thing with my two hooligans - it's not that I think they will kill each other, but I'm not giving them the opportunity.

i hear these arguments and find them completely logical.  especially yours about overpopulation. 
 
i can't help myself, though.  i really believe that some of this actually contributes to, or is a manifestation of,  a BSL climate.  every article that specifically lists pits as "need to be separated or they might kill each other" is a cannon fodder for the people who want to exterminate bully breeds.  it refuses to account for people like amstaffy who breed for tempermant.
 
my confession is that i'm beginning to feel very discouraged.  everywhere i look, i'm being told, "no matter how good you think your dogs are, they aren't, they never will be, and they are incapable of being so."  not by the posters here.  just around.  boards that are supposed to be proponents of bullies are flooded with cautionary tales and warnings.  objectively, which is hard to do, if you're someone reading those things and you don't know anything about dogs, what are you going to come away with?
 
that's how this story makes me feel.  like no matter what i do, my dogs are inherently out of control monsters who could kill each other at any minute.  it breaks my heart that they can't just be dogs, that they have to be "pits" first.  and yes, i understand that killing each other is technically in their blood; i have posted this specific point before.  i'm going to use a very inflammatory analogy here:  black men between the ages of 16-25 are statistically more likely to commit violent crime than any other group of people.  does that mean you don't let young black men participate in society?  does that mean because you encounter a young black man you automatically treat him with additional caution?  does that mean we should ban black men?  i don't mean to be flip. 
 
do you see what i mean?  i am just so discouraged by this story and by other recent events in my own life that make me feel like my dogs are a disaster waiting to happen.......[][]

That's so sad, I feel very bad for that person.  Whatever his motivations (if any) it sounds like he is very affected by this.

It's just a harsh reminder that dogs will be dogs and can be as unpredictable as humans.

We have a large pit bull at the shelter that has staples in his head because he got into a bad fight with his kennel mate.  We also had an akita that was the most affectionate akita ever, VERY affectionate being she is an akita, but would happily maime or kill ANY other female dog, and certainly wanted to even if one passed by her kennel door. 

Sometimes you think the dogs are fine together and their aggression doesn't come out until they are put under stress or some innocent kid is handing one a treat but not the other... When it happens it's difficult to explain and hard to swallow.  Reminds me of my second cousin who had half his scalp ripped off by a neighbor's GSD, a dog he grew up playing with every day.

I have 2 male dogs a staffy bull terrier and a jack russel cross lab and they are fine together. I would never leave them on there owne when im not in the house but around the house there together and the little one even hops into bed with the staffy (as its near the radiator) and they snuggle up. They do play together but both tails are always wagging i think they both know where they stand in the pack and are happy with it they dont fight for dominance. Maybe it was just a horrible accident its still very sad though []
 
claire

let me punctuate this by saying that rosie gets crated most times when nobody is home, which, frankly, is not often due to non-traditional schedules.
 
but she gets crated not because i think they'll fight, but because she has issues with peeing in places she shouldn't.
 
 

my confession is that i'm beginning to feel very discouraged. everywhere i look, i'm being told, "no matter how good you think your dogs are, they aren't, they never will be, and they are incapable of being so." not by the posters here. just around.

That's very sad.  I think most of the problem is that incidents like the one you posted are the ones that get the most exposure, unfortunately.  I can think of plenty of dogs belonging to friends and relatives that have gotten into serious fights with other dogs and people, and none of these were pit bulls.  But like you say, since the pit already has that stigma attached, people pay closer attention to these incidents as if to say "I told you so!"  For every aggressive pit, there are probably 100 that have lived as family pets and companions and never so much as growled at another dog or person.

Just the other day my mom said that the father of my friend's 3 year old had bought her a pit puppy and that her grandpa (the baby lives with my friend who lives with her parents) refused to let him have his visitations as long as he kept the pit.  So my mom tells this story to the family and they all look over to me, being the "dog person" and all I could say was "well, buying ANY puppy on a whim for a three year old is a bad idea."  But they wanted me to object to the fact that he'd bought a pit.

People are socialized to think they are blood thirsty monsters.  My confession is that I was socialized this way.  I grew up in the bad part of town during some gang wars and if you saw a pit, you called the police.  They were ONLY used for fighting and protection; no one where I lived had a pit as a family pet.  Because of this, I grew up terrified of them.  I still feel like I don't totally trust them, because my only experiences with pits involved fighting dogs or attacking humans.  However, now that I volunteer at the shelter, I try to walk one pit each time I go in.  I'm not to the point where I trust them enough to have one, but I'm seeing the side of pits I was never exposed to as a kid.  Is it MY fault?  It's the the PITS' fault?  Who knows.

ORIGINAL: badrap

boards that are supposed to be proponents of bullies are flooded with cautionary tales and warnings. 

That's what makes them proponents of the breed. They know the realities and use their experience to inform and educate other owners and potential owners so that bad situations can be avoided. If they didn't warn people to separate their bully breeds and deaths became more frequent, public perception of the breed would be even worse than it already is.

i see your point. 
 
for my part, i often relay cautionary tales to people directly myself. 
 
it's just that reading the boards and trying to picture myself as a non-bully owner, all i come away with is that these are the most dangerous dogs in the world.  i mean, you just don't see GSP owners talking about this, even though we seem to agree that GSPs could be as likely to fight at home unattended as any bully, even if it seems slightly less likely that they would kill each other.  all the other breed people talk about sporting events and agility and training and hunting. 
 
perhaps if it were more common to hear people who have other breeds, like dogslyfe, issuing such cautionary tales to one another, it would be easier for me to swallow.
 
i guess my point is that any way you slice it, it's "glass-half-empty" information, and i really wish there was more positive stuff on the boards like, my dog did awesome at the weight pulling," or "dock jumping is so great", or "i clicker trained my dog".  you know, like you see HERE.  i get such a much more positive feeling here.
 
 

i have a really hard time with this issue. i mean a *really* hard time. i love my dogs like children and really don't want them to ever hurt each other. at the same time, my position is that actively separating two dogs that get along just fine sort of creates a problem where there wasn't one. i guess that's what i'm wondering. in addition, i think, *TRULY* if you think your dogs are going to kill each other, then maybe you should consider re-homing one of them. my exception to this is real, true to life working dogs and breeders.

 
Well prior to adopting Sassy, I could've never imagined having 2 dogs that I needed to keep separated, but circumstances can change your mind.  I think if you ever witnessed your dogs in a fight, you'd know at that very moment that you could never take a chance again.  Fortunately, for the majority of people, it's never an issue.  My dogs happen to be a lab and lab mix, so I don't think the caution applies only to pitties.  In addition, 99% of the time you'd think they were best buds, but I've seen a loud noise in the neighborhood set them off.

ORIGINAL: badrap

i guess my point is that any way you slice it, it's "glass-half-empty" information, and i really wish there was more positive stuff on the boards like, my dog did awesome at the weight pulling," or "dock jumping is so great", or "i clicker trained my dog".  you know, like you see HERE.  i get such a much more positive feeling here.

It is sad that it is that way, but I do think the positive stories are just as common as the others, they just don't stand out as much or get as much attention.

When I found Boomer he was 5 weeks old and skin and bones - there was no telling what breed he was. A couple of weeks later when it became glaringly apparent he was at least 1/2 or more pit I started reading. After reading pbrc, badrap, and that other forum I was thinking "oh $hit, what have I got into?!?!" After accepting the things I couldn't change and realizing that most of the cautionary things could be relatively easily managed I relaxed and just enjoyed my puppy. Who, BTW, was the BEST puppy I've ever had.

Bully breed ownership is not something that can be sugar-coated, and it isn't for the faint of heart, so if those boards scare people off, it's probably just as well, those people may not have been cut out for it.

And no, this information does not just apply to pitties, like I said, my only questionable dog is a lab. It's just that bullies are pretty much an absolute and other breeds aren't.