Grieving

    • Gold Top Dog

    Grieving

    Not sure where to put this...so mods feel free to put it somewhere else.

    Have you had experience with grieving pets?  I don't mean your grief.  I mean your pets mourning over a recently deceased packmate.

    I always figured that when Buddy died, that Heidi  would be affected in some way.  She ADORED him...as I've said many times.  Her behavior around him was always so sweet to watch.  He raised her, literally.  When she was a wee pup, I didn't want her sleeping in a crate alone, so I had her sleep with him.  And, of course...they have been together her entire life.

    It might be my sorrow projecting on to her....or it might be her own.  But, yesterday and last night, she couldn't keep anything down.  It is co-incidental?  Does she have some kind of stomach bug?  Or, is it grief?

    Yesterday afternoon, when I brought her in my office, she immediately threw up ALL of her breakfast.  What worried me the most about this is iwas afternoon....which means her breakfast hadn't digested.  She let loose a LOT.  Earlier I noticed that she threw up in the gated area.  And, this morning I noticed she had thrown up her dinner.

    Dinner was chicken breast and brown rice, as I figured she needed something bland.  I'm contemplating skipping breakfast today.

    She is not having loose stools.  She wants to play.  I took them both on a walk this morning...we haven't done that in a while.

    I really need to try to change my energy today for her sake I think.

    What experiences, if any, have you had with grieving pets.  I know they do...but can they get physically ill with grief?  Or could I be dealing with something else?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Barb I was wondering how the hooligans were reacting.   I think they grieve as well.  I dont have that much experience other than those that I have read on here.   Glenda, Amanda, Callie, Gina and some others have all experienced this so I am sure they will have some input.  I am sending all of you some positive energy vibes this morning.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Not necessarily grief, but when I am really stressed work-wise Charlie "feels" it and has thrown up or showed little interest in food.  And this is the dog that used to lap up baby spit-up.  He's very sensitive to emotions.

    I think it might be a combination of the two, her sadness and the unrest sadness of the house.  Don't feel guilty about it though, you do need to grieve.  I know this sounds silly but have you tried explaining it to her?  What happened to Buddy, etc?

     (((HUGS)))

    • Gold Top Dog

    When I had my first husky, Heidi, she was best buddies with one of our other dogs, Sparky.  We had 3 at the time and all had escaped the pen, ran out around the front of the house, and Heidi got hit and killed by a car.  Sparky stopped eating, started escaping any enclosure we had, started chasing cars, and he bit my then DH.  Sparky also became very unfriendly towards other friends and family who had been at our house numerous times, trying to attack them.  After a lengthy examination and discussion with my vet, we guessed he might have been grieving, trying to attack the car who killed his friend; we couldn't find anything physically wrong with him.  I know he was aware she died; he and the other dog were out front with her body when I found her in the road.  We buried her in the yard and he was screaming from the house, but I didn't think to take him to the gravesite before we covered her.

    So yes, I think they grieve.  And I know you'll do whatever you need to to help your Heidi.

    • Gold Top Dog

    During Sunday evening when he was so bad,....I did actually talk to her about the possibility of needing to say "byebye" to Buddy. 

    I feel terribly guilty because when we left to take him to the vet on Monday afternoon (I had every intention of bringing him home)...I told her that he would be back.  Ugh.  And, then he didn't.

    I was in a terrible place yesterday, myself.  And, I felt so guilty about not bringing home...I didn't talk to her about it.  I don't think its silly...I converse with them all the time.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Do not feel guilty, you didn't know.  (((HUGS)))

    • Gold Top Dog

     Barb..(hugs)

    Yes they do. In my case it was with one of my current cats. When I lost Mr. Mow in 2005 my second cat Smokeyjoe went into a deep depression, or so it seemed. Mow died here at home and SJ was present. After taking care of Mow, we found SJ laying in the same spot where he had chosen to exit this world. Nothing I did could make him move, he stayed there for a good 24 hours. And for the first time ever, my silent cat became vocal. Loud displays of meowing. As if calling for his friend.

    For weeks after he moped around the house. It wasn't until we switched sides here in the house (moved from the smaller unit to the larger) did we see improvement.

    So, yes they grieve, and yes they pick up on our feelings.

    Thinking of you all.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Barb I don't mean this to sound insensitive -- but how does she "know" about Buddy?  You took him to the vet but he didn't come home.  Did you bring him "home" or just tell her?

    The "short" answer is that typically their grief is first confusion if they didn't get to 'see' the deceased, particularly if it wasn't something like cancer or an illness they could smell.  The grief typically is different with each one -- often behavioral changes, depression -- can be like it is in us or it can be totally missing.  However -- if she was *worried* about him -- he was gone all day, that could have tied her up in knots and caused digestive issues over the course of the day. 

    They're often smarter than we give them credit for -- and they **DO** hear us talking and draw conclusions, so it's likely she knew *you* were completely wound up, and had talked about losing him (you lost a cat not long ago that you had to help over the Bridge if I recall??)  So she's likely smart enough to know he might *not* come home so she could have been pretty upset.

    With a lot of hindsight -- AND with the understanding that I expect a lot of understanding --language-wise -- from my dogs, I always make sure they get to see the dog who has passed **just** so they get closure and know she/he's not in pain somewhere.  They may know us and love us, but I don't expect my dogs to "trust" me like that - I want them to see.

    Usually there isn't much reaction when they see a deceased.  It's almost like they sniff and walk away like "Well, THAT isn't where *he* is any more!! He's not IN there any more" (and more emphasis on the words just for clarity -- I think they are way more matter of fact about death than we are).

    I had to help Foxy over the Bridge, but he and Billy were SO bonded I took Billy up with me when I took Foxy.  The girls held him out in the reception area for me while Dr. Bailey and I said goodbye and Dr. B administered the pink stuff.  But then I had them bring Billy back in the room so HE could see. 

    We took Kee Shu to the emergency vet (cos David wanted to be with me) but we brought her home afterward and I took her up to Dr. B to be cremated the next morning -- a lot of running around, but Luna, Billy and **particularly Tink** were bonded to her and it was the first of death Tink had seen. 

    When we lost Billy in March it was SO fast -- David and I were out (it was our anniversary) and we went home to GET Tink & Luna to go up to the vet at 10:00 at night to see Billy for the last time.  They KNEW he'd gone up to stay with Sharika but this was a complete surprise.

    Ok -- all that to say this -- they ALL grieve, and can grieve DEEPLY.  There tends to be "no fun" in the spirit for days.  It can change behavior for weeks and months -- often they will go lie "by" or "on" the favorite place of the one who is gone.  Sometimes pack restructuring.  Sometimes **nothing**.

    Tinker probably grieves the hardest of any dog I've ever had.  It really whacks her for a loop for weeks where she is very subdued, sighs a lot, etc.  She and Billy weren't all that close -- but she **Missed** him greatly. 

    To answer your question bluntly -- yes, they can become physically ill with grief, but typically I'd associate it with something a *bit* longer term.  I'd watch Heidi very closely -- "stress" can bring on a ton of things (we see dogs over on the IMHA page pretty frequently where the owner can trace stress as the precursor to the IMHA onset -- via behavior, etc., and my holistic vet has told me many stories of emotional trauma resulting in auto-immune stuff). 

    One more thing to think about -- Heidi has shown *no* reaction at all to the Frontline?  She's the only one off her food?  Not grabbing at straws -- just trying to help you look at all angles.

    But honestly, given the fact that she's playful -- I'd give your vet a call and at least *tell* him how fast and hard she's gone off her food.  Taking her in for a fecal might be smart.   Pure stress can cause a huge increase in gut bacteria but that might manifest a bit different.  It would just be a darned good idea to have the vet in the loop.

    • Gold Top Dog

    CoBuHe

    During Sunday evening when he was so bad,....I did actually talk to her about the possibility of needing to say "byebye" to Buddy. 

    I feel terribly guilty because when we left to take him to the vet on Monday afternoon (I had every intention of bringing him home)...I told her that he would be back.  Ugh.  And, then he didn't.

    I was in a terrible place yesterday, myself.  And, I felt so guilty about not bringing home...I didn't talk to her about it.  I don't think its silly...I converse with them all the time.

    It took me the whole time everbuddy else was posting to type my *brief* (rolling eyes) response.  I just can't say nuffin quick. 

    When *we* hurt we can look back and think we'd have done 100 things different.  And at this point David and I have worked our way into a "routine" because we regret not having done it a couple of times.  Heck -- the night after Billy & I had to take Foxy up (David couldn't get out of work) David and I went out to dinner so I didn't have to cook -- and I had to have him pull over on a city street while *I* puked my guts out and it was a full 24 hours before *I* could handle food.  That after I was SO proud of how well I'd handled Foxy's "goodbye" (cos I didn't want to traumatize him!).  My 'head' was fine with it -- but my own body had other ideas.

    so I'm going to say again -- call the vet and keep him in the loop but it *could surely be* grief and stress.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sunday evening, I believe she could sense Buddy was "not right."  No, she didn't get to see him afterwards, and honestly I was not in a mindset to take her to see him.  I don't honestly know that I could handle that.

    So, yes...she is likely confused about where he is.  And, my energy yesterday didn't help at all.

    No reaction to the Frontline for either Hooligan.  I think we already nixed that concept...considering there were no other kind of allergic reaction symptom displayed.

    I've read here about how people have their dogs see, sniff their deceased packmate.  So, it was a consideration.  But, there was no way I would have been able to go back up to see him.  Now, if we had opted to bring him home, and later have the vet come to the house to euthanize, there would have been the opportunity for her to see him.  That was a consideration as well.  But, we didn't go that route.

    Another thing we worried about is her behavior towards Bruder....would she be ugly with him as a result.  I need to ensure they stay on each others good side...another reason why I took them both for a walk togethr this morning.  Get her mind on outside sniffs, together.  Always good therapy, I think.

    I will call the vet to let them know of her stomach issue; and to ask their opinion of whether I feed her breakfast or not.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm sure some dogs do grieve for a lost companion.  They also react to our emotions and this could be what's happening.  I do think if she's still throwing up after 24 hours, you should have her checked at the vet.  I don't think explaining things to a dog does much good since they don't speak English.  Yes, they are able to learn what some words mean but that's not the same as sitting them down and trying to explain a complex situation such as death.  You need to grieve and I believe that trying to mask that grief and emotion is unhealthy for you.   Dogs are well equipped to help us through difficult times and you and Heidi can help each other if you let all this guilt go.  There isn't anyone who hasn't second guessed themselves in times like this but you did the right thing in the best way possible under the circumstances.

    • Gold Top Dog

    JackieG
    don't think explaining things to a dog does much good since they don't speak English. 

    You mean, you and GabbyG don't have indepth conversations about movies, books and current events?  Big Smile

    • Gold Top Dog

    Barb, do you remeber the fellow that used to be here on Idog a couple of years ago that had the 2 Dane sibbling along with other dogs I believe.  One was a white dane that was more on the sickly side ( something about the all white danes ) and the other not...but darn I can't think of their names either...maybe the dads name was David????    But the white dane died and her perfectly healthy sibling would not eat or anything for week. He actually was putting him in the car and taking him thru McDonalds and all to get him to eat at least something...he was very very worried. He did in fact help that dog to get thru it...but he almost lost him too.  

    That sure proves they grieve to me.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Barb, again my sympathy.

    Yes, they do grieve, and it depends on the closeness of the dogs.  My boys were  bit "off" after Thor went to the Bridge.  Sheba was inconsolible (sp).  She was the one who did more than sniff and walk away, she is the one I had the longest, most in depth talks with, and she is the one who refused ANY food, no matter how tempting, who had potty issues and, who destroyed TWO crates.  Sheba and Thor would spend their day when no one was  home in a giant crate in our bedroom.  The giant crate bit the dust the first week Thor was gone, a smaller, single went the following week.  And, these were excellent quality crates.  Didn't matter what room the crate was in, she was having none of it.  Yet now, she LIKES the option of a plastic crate.  Go figure.

    We all make mistakes when our emotions are involved.  So give yourself a big hug and forgive yourself for not being perfect.  The hooligans already have.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I  searched this whole forum trying to find thread about those danes I mentioned above.. I believe the dad of them was DPU.....

    what ever happened to him? I wish I knew about his dogs!