Butt rubbing & Sneakin'

 Why is she being punished?

 There are areas in the house that she knows she is not allowed in (basement, couch, bedrooms) and certain behaviors that she knows she's not allowed (scooting, stealing food, gnawing feet). She does what she wants and then crawls away in the "oh-oh" position, so she understands this all and at one point in the past these were very controllable things. Now she's like a rebellious teenager.

Scooting and gnawing feet are **BOTH** medical issues.  It sounds to me like this dog has some severe allergies, and may actually have impacted anal glands.  *Many* dogs need their gland expressed weekly.  Trust me -- this isn't to cause "pleasure" (sorry, but your misunderstanding really is a bit upsetting) -- she's in discomfort.

Licking and gnawing at the feet is typically primary allergy symptoms - often atopic (hayfever type allergies -- often year round and can be from stuff outside or inside your home).  In dogs allergies cause the histamines to create a tingling in the feet -- it feels a whole lot like your foot would if you sat on it too long and it "went to sleep".  Imagine your feet feeling like that **ALL** the time?

Some dogs need their glands expressed frequently -- it can be the result of diet, or simply *that* particular dog.  And if she''s in this kind of discomfort it's honestly no wonder she 'sneaks' to try to be a bit more comfortable.  The more uncomfortable she gets, the less understanding she gets from you -- I'm not surprised this has turned into a power struggle. 

Please consult your vet on this -- you can't just express the glands 'a few times' -- and they likely need to be expressed *internally* not just externally to fully express the glands.  The vet also needs to look for an infection there as well.

Allergies can be a challenge but you will find tons of help on here about that -- it's far far more than just "food" allergies (altho those can be very real). 

They may react looking "guilty" -- but that's really more frustration on her part because she knows she risks your censure than any "feeling" she has that she did "wrong".  Instead she's likely frustrated because she's uncomfortable and can't please you.

And honestly?  food-stealing?  Any dog is going to do that.  If it's out and they aren't supervised, most any dog is going to 'steal' whatever it can.  it's their way.

Sounds like your bully girl is really suffering. A dog who is itching fiercely won't act right- my German contracted mange once and COULD NOT listen or follow direction well at all, and I couldn't blame him. The in-laws dog had it too and she actually snapped at people to avoid touch she was so uncomfortable. Obviously not saying your pupper has the mange but the principle is the same. Bull terriers and some other bull breeds are known to have allergies and also some OCD type behavior. As a human who lives with OCD let me assure you it is NOT as easy as just saying STOP nor is it truly pleasurable. It is a release of anxiety. Maybe she has one of the conditions or both. You really need to consult with a vet about allergy treatment (some dogs respond excellently to injections) or as a last resort and all physical is ruled out, possibly a medication to ease OCD. Edited to add: I want to really stress that I feel "merely psychological" is a dangerous term. Suffering from a mental ailment us every bit as painful and legit as physical.

Guilt! This must be one of the most common misconceptions about dog behavior.   I could write a book on how humans misinterpret dog behavior when they think they are seeing "guilty" behavior.  But since true experts have already written those books I recommend you read one or two. Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson is a good one.

The dog has a problem with it's anal glands and/or untreated allergies.  I'd get her to a Vet.  You can punish her all you want but she's experiencing discomfort and is trying to relieve it. 

Thinking that a problem is "merely psychological" is starting down a slippery slope that can end up with a dog with nearly insurmountable behavior problems.  Please spend some time educating yourself about dogs and dog behavior.  Your dog will thank you for it and you will be a much happier dog owner.

 

 MY Goodness you people! Did none of you read the whole post? As per above, she is being treated, and has been consistently treated for the past couple years on this issue, everything from anti-inflammatories, to allergy pills, to antibiotics and special foods and supplements and anal glands squishies weekly. The dog costs us more than all three of our children, so she is obviously being seen. Her vets, which are bulldog specialists can't figure out anything more thus why it is always coming back to it being a behavior issue now, because despite being under all the special care she still does this.

 And I have known many dogs who you can put a plate of food in front of, unsupervised and though they will stare it down for hours, they won't flinch towards it. That's just bad training if you think otherwise. 

 PS- On a second note, do male dogs not exhibit masturbation for pleasure? That is what I'm feeling is going on, that my female is masturbating through scooting and rubbing.

BullsEye

 PS- On a second note, do male dogs not exhibit masturbation for pleasure? That is what I'm feeling is going on, that my female is masturbating through scooting and rubbing.

So punishment hasn't worked as you've still got the behavior going on.   If you ask for ideas I assume that you're open to suggestions.  My suggestion is to learn about dog behavior and most especially why punishment fails in many cases to correct unwanted behavior.  When an owner uses punishment incorrectly the response most dogs have is to avoid the owner or to "hide" the behavior from the owner.  This results in the owner believing that the dog knows and understands why it is being punished.  Dogs don't have our sense of so called morality about masturbation, soiling carpet or stealing food.  Those are all things that mean a lot to humans but dogs just think we're crazy when we freak out about perfectly normal dog behavior so they try and appease the human by showing signs of submission. 

As I said earlier, you and your dog would both benefit if you would open yourself up to learning about how dogs learn and how they react to our attempts to use human concepts when training dogs.  You can find all sorts of anecdotal stories about dogs who never do this or that unwanted behavior, but for most dogs, living with humans is a constant attempt by the dog to figure out how to avoid unfair punishment.  It's our world and they're trying to fit in with the least amount of trouble.  Just a little bit of knowledge can make a world of difference when it comes to dealing with "problem" behaviors.

If you still think your dog knows what it is doing is wrong try this method.  Sit down with your dog and calmly explain all the reasons you don't want her to steal food, rub her butt on the carpet and any other behavior you don't want.  Wait, she can't speak English!  Try Spanish or maybe she speaks Italian.  Wait, she's a dog and all that is just random noise!  I am really sincere when I say that if you will just make an attempt to do some reading on dogs and how they learn and why they do some of the things that make humans so upset, you'll have a chance at changing her behavior.  If you want a quick, magic wand type solution, you're out of luck.

 

BullsEye

Did none of you read the whole post?

 

We did. If you compare the first post to this one you forgot to mention: "has been consistently treated for the past couple years on this issue, everything from anti-inflammatories, to allergy pills, to antibiotics and special foods and supplements"

This is what you said: 

BullsEye

She does have skin allergies which are treated

 

As you can see we can only go to what you say. In post #1 you didnt talk about special food and supplements (which is what some suggested). Therefore we thought you havent tried it. "Skin allergies" and environmental allergies are not always caused by the same. My dog has food allergies, not environmental ones. If you only say "She does have skin allergies" then we will tell you that maybe other allergies are to blame, please include as many details as you can, if you didnt please take your time to say "sorry i forgot to mention...."

Also post number one and two were not the same on this:

BullsEye

we have had her anal glands squeezed a few times

 

BullsEye

and anal glands squishies weekly.

 

"A few times" and "weekly" make a lot of difference as Calliecritturs suggested so please dont get upset because you know one thing but we read another from you.

You say that "she knows" some behaviors are not allowed, how is she with stealing food now? If she is not stealing food (which could hardly be considered a medical issue) and you are doing EXACTLY the same to teach her not to squat or gnawing then she should not be doing it either. 

If she is still stealing food then clearly your corrections are not taking effect and actually she "does not know" yet which behaviors are not allowed. She is only reacting to an owner that "gets crazy" out of nowhere and she cant figure out why.

Also is never bad idea to ask for a medical second opinion, maybe another bulldog specialist has come across with something your current doctor has not.

BullsEye

Did none of you read the whole post?

 

We did. If you compare the first post to this one you forgot to mention: "has been consistently treated for the past couple years on this issue, everything from anti-inflammatories, to allergy pills, to antibiotics and special foods and supplements"

This is what you said: 

BullsEye

She does have skin allergies which are treated

 

As you can see we can only go to what you say. In post #1 you didnt talk about special food and supplements (which is what some suggested). Therefore we thought you havent tried it. "Skin allergies" and environmental allergies are not always caused by the same. My dog has food allergies, not environmental ones. If you only say "She does have skin allergies" then we will tell you that maybe other allergies are to blame, please include as many details as you can, if you didnt please take your time to say "sorry i forgot to mention...."

Also post number one and two were not the same on this:

BullsEye

we have had her anal glands squeezed a few times

 

BullsEye

and anal glands squishies weekly.

 

Absolutely everthing ESpencer said -- we aren't in your living room.  We only know what you tell us.

Licking feet becomes a habit -- but you don't stop it by punishing her.  You stop it by addressing it **as she's doing it** and re-directing her.  I have a pug who would lick obsessively by the hour -- I probably told her 47 times yesterday afternoon "No licking, Tink" -- and she'd stop for a moment only to resume later.  But I re-directed her, I massaged her paws, I gave her a Nylabone, I interested her in something else... the list goes on.

Punishment for something like that doesn't work.

Also -- even tho allergies are 'treated" doesn't mean that she's not plagued by the symptoms every day.  *I* have allergies -- and I take allergy medicine and yet much of my waking hours are spent dealing with my allergies and  keeping them maintained enough so I can work and so that it doesn't lead to so much inflammation that I develop other infections on top of it.  I'm sure glad no one "punishes" me for scratching when *I* itch!

Quite honestly it can be *miserable* for them to have allergies -- and the allergies can *also* inflame the anal tissue (it's very similar tissue to the mucus membranes in the ears, nose, throat, etc. and can be prone to inflammation).

I use TCVM with my allergy dogs (Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine) -- why?  Because it keeps them ***far*** more comfortable than anything regular veterinary medicine has to offer.  It keeps the paw-chewing/paw-licking far far more minimal.  I also use homeopathics to help alleviate the itching they feel. 

Compassion here would help a lot. 

What did you want everyone to say, that you should punish her and the only reason it isn't working is you're just not being mean enough? Like Espencer said, your original post was vague. Nobody can read minds here, sorry. I would be weary of "we've tried all we can, dog must just be bad/crazy/fill in the blank with whatever" logic. A lot of now recognized disorders and ailments were once thought to be a bunch of psychobabble. maybe she justvneeds a different course of action. I would consult with a few different vets to get the best treatment available. Stimulate her mind and redirect her. If she were my girl, I would feel bad for her, not angry with her. I know it can start to feel like a burden sometimes if youre shelling out lots if money and time and seeing little to no result- but remember SHE is the one living with the symptoms and bears the brunt of it. She would choose to not have these ailments if she could. PS nobody here is trying to be combative or rude. All of us want to see success for you and relief for her.

 Actually, having lived with a dog that had severe foot chewing and butt scooting issues her whole life, I can tell you that we got it "better" but never cured it.  It took some serious anti-fungals and other stuff to get her to a point where she quit licking and scooting and that was during her last year of life.  Try an anti-fungal medication and see if that helps your dog.

And if your dog scoots and leaves stains, then your dog's poop is too soft and perhaps you need to change her food.  A dog's butt should be clean after pooping. Not being clean means their poop was soft and most likely, their anal glands were not emptied while pooping because it takes a firm stool to empty the glands.  Our dog that scooted *never* left stains anywhere, NEVER and she scooted every time after pooping. If her butt itched, I'm sure it felt good to scoot! It feels good to me if I have an itch and scratch it, that's the whole point of the itch right?

And yes, if you've punished (yelled at, hit, startled or otherwise scared your dog) for chewing her feet or scooting her butt, then you better bet she's gonna get scared if you approach her while or after she's done them.  The history of you approaching with that look on your face means you're going to be a crazy person that yells, hits or otherwise punishes her for stuff.  But this "stuff" that she's doing is serving an innate drive to feel better so she's going to keep doing them no matter what you do to her.

Beejou

What did you want everyone to say, that you should punish her and the only reason it isn't working is you're just not being mean enough? Like Espencer said, your original post was vague. Nobody can read minds here, sorry. I would be weary of "we've tried all we can, dog must just be bad/crazy/fill in the blank with whatever" logic. A lot of now recognized disorders and ailments were once thought to be a bunch of psychobabble. maybe she justvneeds a different course of action. I would consult with a few different vets to get the best treatment available. Stimulate her mind and redirect her. If she were my girl, I would feel bad for her, not angry with her. I know it can start to feel like a burden sometimes if youre shelling out lots if money and time and seeing little to no result- but remember SHE is the one living with the symptoms and bears the brunt of it. She would choose to not have these ailments if she could. PS nobody here is trying to be combative or rude. All of us want to see success for you and relief for her.

really, really well said.

Particularly I want to echo that we aren't trying to be combative nor rude -- it *can* seem as if the dog is being rebellious, but most of that is because they can't open their mouth and *tell* us how they feel.  I have seen dogs SO consumed with the itch from allergies that you literally almost can't break their minds free from it - and I'd be willing to bet cold hard cash that the butt scooting IS from allergies as well.  I've seen Billy chew himself raw back there. 

Tashakota posted in between here, and she's another ... like me, who has lived with and loved allergy dogs with these issues -- I think you'll find it's pretty heartbreaking when you understand she's driven to this simply by how she feels.  And if your vet INSISTS it's behavioral?  Honestly I'd be looking further afield for a vet with deeper understanding of allergies.  There are a *lot* of us on here with allergy dogs -- just search for 'allergy' and see how many posts come up (I'm going to be more than "hundreds" -- WAY more).  ! 

JackieG

Guilt! This must be one of the most common misconceptions about dog behavior.   I could write a book on how humans misinterpret dog behavior when they think they are seeing "guilty" behavior.  But since true experts have already written those books I recommend you read one or two. Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson is a good one.

The dog has a problem with it's anal glands and/or untreated allergies.  I'd get her to a Vet.  You can punish her all you want but she's experiencing discomfort and is trying to relieve it. 

Thinking that a problem is "merely psychological" is starting down a slippery slope that can end up with a dog with nearly insurmountable behavior problems.  Please spend some time educating yourself about dogs and dog behavior.  Your dog will thank you for it and you will be a much happier dog owner.

 

 

 

I totally agree.  I'm sure you wouldn't punish a child for being so itchy they couldn't help themselves, you'd take them to the doctor.  Your dog is trying, the best she knows how, to relieve itching or pain.  If you yell at her or punish her for doing this behavior, you've given her NO CHOICE but to do it out of your sight.  She doesn't know it's wrong because she's soiling a carpet or staining a floor, she just knows that you are nasty when she does it in your presence, so she avoids doing it in front of you.  I would be willing to bet that she either has STILL problems with allergies, or something's wrong with her anal sacs and that if your vet and you can figure it out, and treat it correctly and completely, this behavior will stop.  Punishment is just cruel in the case of a dog with medical issues that they cannot help, so my advice is to talk to your veterinarian, since there's obviously still something going on.  Dogs rarely do anything like that for "psychological" reasons.  Dogs do masturbate for pleasure, and you can train (notice I said train, not punish) them not to, but in that case, there's no overriding *medical* reason for them to be humping.  The reason you got the reaction you did is that people here would be very supportive of your ongoing efforts to help your dog with veterinary interventions, but being experienced dog owners, they immediately sensed this to be a medical, rather than a behavioral, issue.  Even when dogs get in to habits that are originally brought on by medical conditions, the solution is rarely punishment, it's usually much more successful to redirect and then reward an alternative behavior that you do like.