Prey/hunt drive take 2

 well, he also has some pain going on right now too, no?

 Yes - but that wasn't it, the hunting is intensifying over the last few weeks, as everything is emerging.  His body language and behavior on walks is all business, very serious and intent.  You can see that he is a millions miles away in his hunt and then is sort of surprised to see something moving, so he reacts THEN realizes its not a threat

 I actually would be more inclined to say that it's a "sudden environmental contrast" issue, vs a drive issue, but the intensity with the hunting/searching is making the SEC happen for Bugsy (i.e. because he's so intent in hunting/searching his normal environmental scanning is absent and thus runners can "sneak up" on him easily).  Of course none of that makes the desire to understand his drives any less important, but maybe it'll give you more insight into a possible reason behind this behavior resurfacing.

stardog85

because he's so intent in hunting/searching his normal environmental scanning is absent and thus runners can "sneak up" on him easily

stardog85

"sudden environmental contrast"

The runner clearly startled him which is why he seemed to tense and prepare when he did see her, but he was easily diverted to the leaf pile.

If he were a 'reactive' dog in the normal sense, he would have reacted to the loose barking, lunging, growling shih tzu we came upon this morning.  Instead no matter how close or fired up the shih tzu got he never even gave it a glance. He just kept 'working' whatever he was working, quite merrily.

I'm writing about this because I see it as interesting and it does help to understand a bit more about him and what drives him.  No doubt there are plenty of other dogs who behave similarly yet I've never read anything about the relationship of hunt/prey drive and the susceptibility of "sudden environmental contrast".  Or in my terms being far, far away and having a sudden re-insertion to the real world.  Nor have I come across methods of diminishing this phenomenon.

I'm hoping that a discussion here takes off on the subject

I have a little different take on this, influenced by working in Schutzhund.  To me, prey and hunt drive are different.  What you describe is what I'd consider prey drive.  Usually, "hunt drive" does not refer to hunting as in chasing prey, but hunting for food with the nose.  I like a dog with high hunt drive because that translates well into tracking.  In SchH the dog is tracking a human, not prey, but is generally trained to footstep track using food on the track.  The dog is not uncomfortable digging around with their nose and scavenging for food on the ground, sometimes deep in foliage.  With puppies we encourage this by laying "scent pads" where kibble or treats are scattered on the ground.  Hunt drive also generally means high food drive for training, so the dog is very very easy to train and motivate with treats and food and will do just about anything to get to it.  So to me, hunt drive is not about searching out and chasing down prey but about getting food in general. 

As to the prey drive and reactivity, yes and no.  Generally when I hear the word "reactive" I think of fear-based reactivity, where the dog is insecure about something so he sounds off first.  But high prey drive can definitely cause a dog to become more "reactive" in a more general sense of the word (in contrast with a dog who is "proactive" in training, more of a thinking, problem solving dog).  In SchH we see this where dogs become so fixated on an object of prey that they lose their ability to really think and problem solve.  Sometimes the dog will even physically "lock up".  An example would be a lot of people try to teach their dog a sit out of motion using a toy as a lure, and find that when they give the sit command, the dog stops but won't sit or sits veeeeeery slowly.  Usually this is because the dog is locked onto that toy (which is used as a prey object to motivate and reward the dog).  Take the dog down a few notches and/or do the exercise with the toy in a pocket or out of sight and this usually solves the problem of the dog physically locking up.  Right now my Pan's prey drive is developing and he is *very* interested in bikers and skateboards, not yet as focused on actual prey animals (thank goodness).

This is a great article on temperament and drive, as things are generally understood in the working dog world: http://wildhauskennels.com/temperament.htm

A little more.... Nikon also has very high prey drive.  He is not interested in joggers or bikers but will chase and kill prey animals.  In herding I need to keep him in check. In obedience this translates to very high ball/toy drive and he will basically do backflips for a reward toy.  At this point in his life, because of his age/immaturity and the type of training we're currently doing which encourages this drive, I don't generally let him loose around small kids.  He actually loves kids and can be a social dog, but little kids running and screaming cause him to fixate in prey, and he wants to run around barking.

The key to handling him is two things.  1) Sometimes fixating on prey objects is just not an option, because I said so and I will make it not possible or very uncomfortable to do so and 2) I've developed his prey drive into BALL drive and can use the ball to distract him from *anything* and get him back to working with me.  I can heel him around off leash with rabbits, sheep, and kids running wild.  The trick is both being able (and willing to do what it takes) to interrupt the drive when it becomes fixation on something inappropriate, and also tapping into that drive and channeling it into something useful and motivational.

Liesje

The trick is both being able (and willing to do what it takes) to interrupt the drive when it becomes fixation on something inappropriate, and also tapping into that drive and channeling it into something useful and motivational.

Agree!  

 Thanks Lies - I don't have much time at the moment but want to quickly/briefly respond and say that it is much more hunt than prey.  Especially using your description of searching versus chasing.  He is searching not chasing.

No we all know that he will chase certain prey - at all costs (birds) when opportunity arises (squirrels, rabbits, deer, etc) But he doesn't chase on walks at all (he would certain birds given a chance) he does hunt for moles but that is by scent.  First and foremost his nose is to the ground

Liesje

The dog is not uncomfortable digging around with their nose and scavenging for food on the ground, sometimes deep in foliage. 

In general he is a proactive dog but when he gets lost in his own world and there is a sudden intrusion (in this case the runner) he was startled which caused him to consider reacting.

I'll read the article later

 Maybe he just gets so into his foraging that he gets quite aroused. An aroused dog is a more reactive dog. I believe the hunting is the same thing that makes clicker training so addictive. Erik gets extremely full on about clicker training. Sometimes I have to bring him down a peg or two so that he can problem solve his way through it. The more excited he gets the more he moves, the fewer behaviours he tries, the more persistent he is with them, and the quicker he becomes frustrated. I usually use some massage or cue some stationary/duration behaviours. If I drop the reward rate within a framework that he understands, we avoid the frustration and manage to bring him down a bit.

My guess is Bugs is getting a pretty high reward rate with his hunting. I'm guessing just honing in on a scent is lots of frequent little rewards as he tracks it down. There it is! Oh, wait... There! ...lost it... Yes!

corvus

Maybe he just gets so into his foraging that he gets quite aroused. An aroused dog is a more reactive dog. I believe the hunting is the same thing that makes clicker training so addictive. Erik gets extremely full on about clicker training. Sometimes I have to bring him down a peg or two so that he can problem solve his way through it. The more excited he gets the more he moves, the fewer behaviours he tries, the more persistent he is with them, and the quicker he becomes frustrated. I usually use some massage or cue some stationary/duration behaviours. If I drop the reward rate within a framework that he understands, we avoid the frustration and manage to bring him down a bit.

My guess is Bugs is getting a pretty high reward rate with his hunting. I'm guessing just honing in on a scent is lots of frequent little rewards as he tracks it down. There it is! Oh, wait... There! ...lost it... Yes!

My guess is that Corvus is going to know where i am about to take this   When you are seeing a dog do this,(forage) the dog is in an emotional state called SEEKING as suggested  by Panksepp. Panksepp would suggest that Prey is merely an extendsion of this state. It is a marvelous motivational state for a dog and something that i would choose to harness rather than fight. It is one way to help motivate dogs to track. (both of mine are trackig titled)

kpwlee

If he were a 'reactive' dog in the normal sense, he would have reacted to the loose barking, lunging, growling shih tzu we came upon this morning.  Instead no matter how close or fired up the shih tzu got he never even gave it a glance. He just kept 'working' whatever he was working, quite merrily.

I'm writing about this because I see it as interesting and it does help to understand a bit more about him and what drives him.  No doubt there are plenty of other dogs who behave similarly yet I've never read anything about the relationship of hunt/prey drive and the susceptibility of "sudden environmental contrast".  Or in my terms being far, far away and having a sudden re-insertion to the real world.  Nor have I come across methods of diminishing this phenomenon.

I'm hoping that a discussion here takes off on the subject

 

Just another couple of things to consider.  Reactivity can be selective, i.e. dogs that react to dogs, but not to other stimuli, such as birds or people and vice versa.   I think the way you control the activity is to make the "seeking" the reward for the dog diverting from the behavior.  So, the dog could be asked to "come" but then reinforce the "come" by letting him to go back to the hunt;-)    Same game you play in puppy class - come, go play, come, go play.

Thanks to all for responding.

Poodleowned I don't do a formal competition tracking but we do a daily scent work and we are going to do some bird dog training shortly.  I needed to get his 'whoa' steady enough to take him to the preserve to work with the trainer and we are close.

spiritdogs

So, the dog could be asked to "come" but then reinforce the "come" by letting him to go back to the hunt;-) 

He does not react to people in general but ever since the dog in our neighborhood that attacked him several times (it was running with its owner) he is wary of someone running with a dog and occasionally a single runner. I would say that he considers reacting but rarely does at this point.

I have tried to add little demands throughout the walk and we have met up with a couple of our walking buddies the last two days (we are fortunate to have lots of dog owners that walk their dogs in the morning in our community and we know most of them) With one buddy he walked better and did less scenting with the other one he did more scenting and added in squirrel hunting.

I know that once Spring moves to Summer things will settle but the next few months will be a challenge

I will increase our scent work and am hoping to get him to the bird hunting preserve next week

kpwlee

I will increase our scent work and am hoping to get him to the bird hunting preserve next week

Yay!!!  I can't wait to hear all about it. :) 

kpwlee

Poodleowned I don't do a formal competition tracking but we do a daily scent work and we are going to do some bird dog training shortly.  I needed to get his 'whoa' steady enough to take him to the preserve to work with the trainer and we are close.

Yes.. Tracking is very good fun. One thing to consider is that thinking that because dogs forage they will track is not true from my experience. You shoul construct the tracking experience as you would any other exercise. I am a fan mostly of Steve White. His DVDs will not do your dog any harm.

Having said all that.... It is a rare dog that i can't get to track and title within a season.  I also like to start with 8 week pups if i can. We can often title them at 7 odd months, and that early imprinting is worth it's wait in gold. The main thing is to be structured fun and know that your handling is very important. Always tracking alone without a buddy leads to some bad habits!!!

BTW if properly cued there need not be any conflict between gun dog work, SAR, tracking. I will drive home the point within the next couple of years by training a Lab or Wire haired pup to do all three.  Wish me luck! At the moment we have a Irish Water Spaniel doing two of them..