Prey/hunt drive take 2

PoodleOwned, I'm not sure if you would agree, but what I've come to learn about tracking is that it is all about the art (yes art) of laying the track.  At least in Schutzhund, when we see tracking problems, often people wonder how they can better handle the dog.  Like, the dog is too fast so someone suggests a different type of harness.  I have come to believe that you train the dog to track and you control every aspect of their tracking behavior based on how you LAY the track, and not so much how you handle the track.  If my dog is tracking too fast, then I lay the track differently.  IMO a good tracking dog should be able to track correctly off lead wearing nothing (and many of them do).  I trained Nikon articles using a positive method, so to him finding articles is the point of the track and the vessel for the reward.  Now that he knows HOW to track and find articles, I lay the track in such a way that there are challenges.  For example right now we are using articles the size of Scrabble game pieces, some of them intentionally half-buried or fallen into deeper foliage.  I don't train my dog to keep his nose deep by forcing it down with some sort of equipment, but by using what motivates him (articles) and laying them in such a way that it promotes deep nose tracking.  A long challenging track I find mentally and physically exhausting for both dog and handler, but in a good way.

poodleOwned

BTW if properly cued there need not be any conflict between gun dog work, SAR, tracking

poodleOwned

I am a fan mostly of Steve White. His DVDs will not do your dog any harm.

I do all of these things with him as recreation to keep his big butt out of trouble!  Without ample stimulation he is a very mischievous dog 

With some support from Jewliee we have been doing some SAR/cadaver dog type training and he is doing very well and enjoying that tremendously. 

kpwlee

I did some basic tracking with him ages ago but he preferred to just go to the item not track footsteps.  I used one of his favorite motivators (hotdogs) but he would run right passed them to the item at the end of the track.

Um.. That is why the work of Panksepp is so illuminating. He is desperate to see what is at the end of the track. SEEKING explains why  this happens. My absolute food driven Lab would do the same thing.

This phenomenon can be changed by removing articles from the track for a while and making the track very interesting. I do it with my poodles all the time. We can also use lead tension as a limit so that the dog knows where rrealtive to the track it is ok to go.

I am currently x cueing my 5 yr old poodle for tracking and sar just to show that it can be done..

Liesje

PoodleOwned, I'm not sure if you would agree, but what I've come to learn about tracking is that it is all about the art (yes art) of laying the track.  At least in Schutzhund, when we see tracking problems, often people wonder how they can better handle the dog.  Like, the dog is too fast so someone suggests a different type of harness.  I have come to believe that you train the dog to track and you control every aspect of their tracking behavior based on how you LAY the track, and not so much how you handle the track. 

In general i agree. What i do with novice handlers is plan and lay the tracks for them as this skill takes aages to acquire!!  It is not till thier second season that we make this more their responsibility.

I do change the way i train from dog to dog. Handling as well as tracklaying is absolutely crucial for my breed. They are generally so owner orientated that if you check them in any way or don't follow them, you stuff them up. 

I am cautious with articles and using article motivation. It works well with some dogs that are already track orientated (GSDs, Rotties etc) but can bounce badly on dogs that are air scenters such as a fair number of gun dogs. I have found though that using small articles and very different ones is  a huge motivator for dogs that are indifferent to other reinforcers.

I think that one point that is missed in a lot of all breeds tracking is that the density of scent coming off a track is aversive for several breeds. We do nothing ot recoginse this. In these situations we do need to counter condition for true tracking. We also may need to shape some breeds to shift towards the center of the track over a period of time. 

We also need to recognise that tracking is wonderful to watch and very human orientated. But that close trailing can be more effective and is more suited to gun dogs and dare i say it poodles. My oldest girl is capable of Shutzhund style tracking under cue. She slows down and does every foot step. But with close trailling she can complete the same track in 1/2 the time. I get more fun out of the later :)

Most times dogs run to the article at the end are because they don't really understand what is expected and have gone too fast in their training (not too fast as in speed on the track, but are doing tracks ahead of what they should be).  Granted in SchH we footstep track so it's more stylized.  It takes a long time to develop the tracking dog.  If your goal is an FH2 or other high tracking title, you have to train for that starting day one.  Even a great tracking dog might do only scent pads daily for two months before adding in a tail and building a track.  Pan is 6 months and has only ever done scent pads and I'm not the least bit worried.  But this gets back to what I mean about how the track is laid being the most important training tool.  If you want the dog to track calmly and methodically, don't start by laying a 100+ pace track for a green dog and then get dragged along the track trying to control the dog's pace.  First imprint the correct behavior.  Not just the tracking behavior but the overall behavior of the dog - focused and intense, yet calm, rhythmic, methodical.  Then build the track, literally step by step. 

Like I said, SchH tracking is overly stylized but I do allow for variation in behavior that is appropriate based on conditions.  However this only comes AFTER a solid foundation.  For example, if there's a wind from the side, I don't correct tracking 1-2 feet off the track.  If the foliage is tall and damp, I allow for the head to come up a bit. 

When the dog loses the track, I like it to be very clear to me because even though it's not ideal, it proves the dog clearly understands training.  The behavior changes instantly.  If I can't see an absolute difference in behavior between a dog on a track and a dog who's off a bit trying to get back on, then I think the dog has progressed too quickly.  When Nikon gets off the track even a matter of 8 inches he instantly goes from calm and focused to a more frantic, quick, anxious casting behavior.  As soon as his nose is back on, he becomes calm and rhythmic again.  When Nikon did the T1, on the second leg he overshot a corner by a few feet.  His behavior changed as I describe.  He got back on the track and finished perfectly.  In the critique the judge explained that while he lost a few points for overshooting the corner, it proved that the dog obviously understands tracking because his behavior changes so clearly when he gets off and gets back on.

I use a ton of articles on my tracks (and no other food or rewards on the track).  The T1 and SchH1 tracks only have two articles but Nikon (who has a T1 but not SchH1) might do a SchH3 length track with two dozen articles on it.  I use articles to control pace, reward turns and difficult stretches, reward long boring stretches, and challenge the dog to really hunt with a deep nose and focus.

Interesting, poodleOwned.  Nikon has trialed in tracking and we've never had someone else lay his track.  Where we are now in his training, it would probably set us back several steps, as no one else really understands the dog, how he tracks, why he tracks, how to space his articles, etc.  Also we have to know where the track is in training, and not just a general idea but the nose must move footstep to footstep.

 Hi

I think we are on the same page, may be even the same paragraph!!

Liesje

.  If you want the dog to track calmly and methodically, don't start by laying a 100+ pace track for a green dog and then get dragged along the track trying to control the dog's pace.  First imprint the correct behavior.  Not just the tracking behavior but the overall behavior of the dog - focused and intense, yet calm, rhythmic, methodical.  Then build the track, literally step by step. 

That is my goal, but of course being all breeds don't care too much if they close trail. 

Liesje

When the dog loses the track, I like it to be very clear to me because even though it's not ideal, it proves the dog clearly understands training.  The behavior changes instantly.  If I can't see an absolute difference in behavior between a dog on a track and a dog who's off a bit trying to get back on, then I think the dog has progressed too quickly. 

I think that an LTI (Lost Track Indication) is the one thing that a dog really has to do well. We don't get pinged for LTis or for the dog being off track  a bit or a dog circling in a corner. I work with the dog to give me clear LTI.s When this happens, there are handling options that i have to help them a bit

With many of the dogs that i teach, i like to build intense track drive, and then add articles after using C+T to  get the indication away from tracking. I then use this intense drive to get indication. It works quite well. My oldest girl spins and sits facing me, and whines till released. My boy does a drop and dive on the article. Having said that we got huge responses form two dogs with indifferent reinforcers with using different and interesting articles. I tend to use food drops track age terrain and lead tension (or lack of it in my case) to control . My older girl will do a 3-4 hour track over concrete asphalt at a brisk walk... but can get absolutely worried with a track over fresh grass. If you have a look at her anatomy you can see why. Her scent gland is smaller and  overloads much easier than many bigger dogs, and she needs to be reminded to breathe to flush it out.