More ?'s about prey drive

I will have to think some on how to get him better focused, Kim and Anne probably will have good ideas.  As far as the prey drive, I will say that I think it's entirely possible for the dog to be very high prey drive but be able to focus when asked.  Nikon is high prey drive but is "neutral" on neighborhood walks (loose leash in front of me, walking forwards on the side walk and not fixated on anything or with his nose down). 

The association between prey drive and sniffing is interesting, I haven't thought of it that way before.  In SchH the sniffing is referred to as the "hunt drive" which is different than prey drive (which is the chase-catch-kill once a prey object is in motion).  Prey drive is visual and hunt drive is olfactory.  Nikon has a much higher prey drive than hunt drive, Kenya is the opposite.  She is genetically far better "wired" for tracking and hunting than Nikon, but has a higher threshold for her prey drive.  She does fixate but will not give chase unless she is released by me where as Nikon will give chase instantly or lose his mind if there's something preventing him from chasing.

With my dogs, especially Nikon, I try to use environmental factors in my favor.  So, for example, if we are on a street or sidewalk, certain behaviors are expected and enforced.  If we are out in a field, there are different, more relaxed rules.  When we are tracking, there are certain rituals and cues that precede the track to get the dog in that state of mind so he knows it is OK to behave much differently than if we were walking on the sidewalk.  When we step out onto the training field at SchH (where wildlife is common - deer, turkey, snakes, rodents, woodchuck, foxes we see every week) there are much higher expectations and strict rules, but there are cues that alert the dog to where we are and what is expected regardless of the wildlife.

kpwlee

We've tried from the beginning to get him to walk head up and not like a bloodhound without success.

When i hike with Chuck i let him smell the ground. When we are on walks and i want him to be focus on doing exercise (so he does not go back to destroy the house) then i keep his head away from the floor.

The solution is simple, attach the leash to your waist and just let slack enought for him to walk next to you comfortable but not enought that he can touch the ground with his nose. Chuck gets over his excitement to smell the floor pretty quickly and just starts walking next to me. Your dog might take a litthe bit more because he was never told not to do so but he will get it at the end and give up, switching his brain to do something else instead (like walking with you). After 15 minutes of a good walk he gets free time to smell around. No food, no toys, no other distractions. Just you and the leash

Is not rocket science but some people will have other techniques that might make it look like it is.

Liesje

The association between prey drive and sniffing is interesting, I haven't thought of it that way before.  In SchH the sniffing is referred to as the "hunt drive" which is different than prey drive (which is the chase-catch-kill once a prey object is in motion).  Prey drive is visual and hunt drive is olfactory.  Nikon has a much higher prey drive than hunt drive, Kenya is the opposite.  She is genetically far better "wired" for tracking and hunting than Nikon, but has a higher threshold for her prey drive.  She does fixate but will not give chase unless she is released by me where as Nikon will give chase instantly or lose his mind if there's something preventing him from chasing.

Hmmm never heard this before but makes great sense - I would say that his hunt drive is higher than his prey drive but both are very high.

Espencer I have tried what you suggested MANY times and in many ways over the years - no success.  When I said  we haven't tried to squelch is prey drive I did not mean we haven't tried to get his nose up.  Even nose up he will be air scenting - sniffing is what he does, always

will be back later to reply completely

thanks for the input

. Have you considered using a pelt of some kind as a motivator for Bugs? He obviously wants to hunt. Maybe, "catching" the pelt could improve his focus a bit.

 Thanks Amanda - interestingly just last week I saw a full squirrel tail on a run and just about picked it up and then thought, "Wow this could make him worse" LOL

I need to think about how I could use it for the specific purpose of gaining his attention on walks.  I really have worked on that aspect for years now.  Nothing overrules prey - he can be very attentive in different environments and he does want to please me in many ways but I do not trump prey or scenting

Can you use the prey drive to your advantage?  In my case, prey drive easily translates into ball drive, so over the past year or so I've built that up to the point where the ball trumps *everything*. It did not happen overnight - wasn't a case of simply playing with a bunch of toys and seeing which one the dog wanted.  We really worked on this and only this for several months.  Sometimes I'll have the ball along on a walk if we've gone somewhere for some quick training, and we'll see an animal, but instead of losing focus or taking off, I either distract Nikon into compliance with the ball, or load him up into it.  It also makes for a great emergency recall.

Liesje

Can you use the prey drive to your advantage?

I would find something he has an interest in (doesn't have to focus on it through distraction right away) and feels right for you to handle, and build from there.  When we get new puppies out at the club I think people get discouraged trying to use toys because they see the older dogs work with them so well, but this does not happen overnight.  There won't really be something that just magically works on day one for heeling the prey driven dog past a jack rabbit.  Personally, I spent months of just building ball drive and only refreshing very basic obedience (sit, down, stay, short heeling). Now I got a new ball on a string, same size, same string, but the ball has a harder shell, is hollow on the inside, and the texture of the ball's surface is different so guess what?  We're back to just playing around getting Nikon OK with using this ball like we used the old one.

The easy thing is to harness and backtie the dog to tease him up and get him crazy over the toy.

What is interesting though is that while all of the dogs have been trained using their prey drive, once we get deep in to training, the dogs no longer have the huge drive to chase things like deer, etc.

Also, sar uses prey in the begining then we switch to hunt (which is the search) so I do think that its totally possible his brain is in a fog that switches instantly between the 2: hunt / prey mode. For a dog like b that would be totally expected and normal.

If it were me I would do short hunt exercises on your walks using a command. Make it a game that you are involved in.

Have you tried using a flirt pole with Bugsy? IMO its a great tool for high toy/prey drive dogs, cause it gives them an outlet for their energy and gives them a chance to chase something. I even used to use it with Bailey(who isnt much of a "toy" kinda guy).

I have a bunch of pieces of cowhide (uncleaned, hair on hides, they smell... like a cow, lol)  and I just tie a piece to the end of a horse lunge whip, and swing it around and let the dog chase it.

I have three dogs. Two are pretty high drives and train in sports (and the one of them, the one in Schutzhund, is borderline "over the top";) and one with low drive and is just a house dog. Interestingly the two with high prey drive are less interested in chasing cats, critters, squirrels than my one house dog. I believe it's because I trained those two so much using balls and tugs, day in and day out, that they have come to associate prey drive with me (prey drive = training with dad) ... "Why chase a squirrel when you can play with a ball on a string" ... whereas my house dog, Obie, has no interested in playing ball and of the three dogs is the most likely to bolt after a squirrel or sniff/track during our walks because prey for him means small animals and new scents, not toy or play.

 Thanks Lies and Jason for the tips on building drive - focused drive.  It will be fairly easy to do as he has several items that are high value.  I fully understand the concept of how to work and build a focused drive - that is what I did with a dokken duck in order to get him to stop going after real waterfowl and to do water retrieves for the dokken.  To increase his drive on land retrieves I have a bumper that I injected duck scent into LOL which is working very well.

Julie 

Jewlieee

Also, sar uses prey in the begining then we switch to hunt (which is the search) so I do think that its totally possible his brain is in a fog that switches instantly between the 2: hunt / prey mode. For a dog like B that would be totally expected and normal.

Jewlieee

What is interesting though is that while all of the dogs have been trained using their prey drive, once we get deep in to training, the dogs no longer have the huge drive to chase things like deer, etc.

Jewlieee

If it were me I would do short hunt exercises on your walks using a command. Make it a game that you are involved in.

BTW as per the cadaver dog DH is currently tasked with having some guy from the UK, who is some world expert in this, do a training for his organization. I told him I wanted to attend now i will have to insist.

I think that if B could work - really work he'd be so much more "at peace"

Chelsea I've never done a flirt pole with him as I don't want to be on the holding end LOL - he is darn serious about these things 

 I will think about some exercises for you and email you (or something over the weekend). I've been giving this a lot of though since I posted last night. B would be a lot of fun to work with imo because he is so driven and intense. He reminds me of Abbie. I fully intend to start her in SAR once we get her anxiety and reactivity under control.