I need help-Lilith bit my son in the face

How's your son been doing with all this?

Kindredspirits

spiritdogs

I usually recommend that my clients not allow children to be on the floor at eye level with the dog, or the dog up on furniture at eye level with the kids.  Also, children should not kiss or hug dogs.  Frankly, we like it, but most of the time dogs really don't.  This is how face bites happen. Here's an interesting commentary by Dr. Yin on a book that has some of us trainers scratching our heads and hoping it's not on anyone's Christmas list for next year:

( http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/smooch-your-pooch-a-cute-childrens-book-with-unsafe-suggestions )

I really think that you need to consult a behaviorist for a really impartial evaluation of this dog's suitability for a home with children, and for a protocol to follow in the event that the eval goes well.

 

 Okay I will make sure the kids are not at eye level with her and no kissing or hugging Lilith. I just never thought it would be an issue. Lesson learned. I am hoping Jewlee can help me find a behaviorist, I tried my own searching and could not find one at all. Until then I'm going to try to work with my trainer and see if that helps. I'm also eager to hear what Lilith breeder says tomorrow morning. I will find a way to get a handle on this. Shes almost six months old, hopefully thats young enough that she can change.

Sorry I've been away from the thread, but I wanted to come back and answer the questions you posed further down:

How do I stop her from biting my hand so hard with treats? (this is one of the new behaviors).  This behavior is common in dogs who have not learned bite inhibition while still young.  One way to teach puppies early is to have them play with other puppies (we start ours at 10 weeks of age playing off leash with others, and if we get a bossy pup, we let that pup play with adult dogs only, so he/she cannot bully anyone and learns from the adults not to be a little puke).  In play, if one pup bites too hard on another pup, there's usually a yelp and the play stops, so they learn to inhibit their bite to avoid losing the playmate's attention.  In this case, a six month old puppy that still grabs is going to be hard to stop.  My advice is to feed all treats flat-handed so she doesn't get to practice that behavior.  Also, you can place a treat in your fist, then let her just mouth you all she wants.  Only when she finally takes her mouth off your hand do you open it and allow her to take the treat, as you say "easy."  Later, once she's done this enough, she may be able to back off your hand just from you saying "easy." 

What do I do when she growls?  First, tell me when she does it.  I do not advise "correcting" a dog that growls.  But, it sounds like she has learned that she can back you off, or that a correction might be coming.  This is a dog that should work for everything she gets.  The food bowl doesn't hit the floor till she does a "sit."   Even if it has to go away for fifteen minutes, or till the next day! 

What can I do to work on her and my sons relationship?  She does not respect him, and that's common among bossy dogs.  I'd want to know more about why there's no relationship in the first place, but there are some dogs that just aren't suited for homes with kids.  That's something your trainer/behaviorist can help you figure out.  But, for now, you can do some classical conditioning.  Pair his approach with good stuff.  So, if he comes in to the room, you feed her treats.  When he leaves the room, the food stops.  If you think it's safe for him to feed her, then he can put her bowl down, but only after she sits.  If she doesn't, he just walks away and you put the food away.

What kind of management things can I do while we are waiting to see my trainer?  Never leave her unsupervised with a child.  If she growls, respect the warning.   YOU begin all interactions.  If your dog solicits your attention by pawing, nudging, barking, whining, etc., turn away and ignore her.  Once you return, she gets no attention, no patting, or anything else, without doing something you ask her to do, such as "sit" or "down."   Don't leave toys around - they now belong to you.  If you play tug, you never let go of the other end of the tug.  Instead, you teach her to relinquish it willingly by offering a small stinky treat and saying "give" as she let's go of the tug to take the treat.  Rinse and repeat. 

Thanks spiritdogs, you are saying great things. Becuase a child is involved, it somewhat concerns me. It would be what i have had to do with a number of my dogs at various times. Even now, i dont' leave toys and other resources (food , personal items, toys) lying around. It is like giving money to the vet.

 Even now, i am using the food in the bowl to densensitise Sam to having me doing things that i would do to a puppy such as walking over him, moving very close to him etc. It is a good tool, one that is often wasted.

Thanks for answering my questions Spiritdogs :) Lilith did have great bite inhibition, just lately she started biting hard to get treats, not sure why. Lilith growling only happens sometimes when I'm petting her. I never correct her, I just keep petting her til she stops. If she growls at anyone else (which honestly doesn't happen often at all) I crate her. I don't hit her or yell or anything. I read way back when that that would cause silent bites. So I don't do that. I do already make her work for almost everything, except I never made her work for toys. I know now that she needs to do something before she gets the toy. I also won't leave toys lying around anymore. I just never thought of that as being part of NILIF. Theres no solid relationship with my son and Lilith because of how mouthy she was for the first couple weeks we got her. My son is a very sensitive child and just avoided her after that. Hes not outright afraid of her, sometimes he does pet her or tries to play with her. But for the most part he just keeps his distance. I am going to get him to start giving her treats and help with training when he feels comfortable. And don't worry, I would never in a million years leave any  dog unsupervised with my children :) We actually do play tug, Lilith knows how to 'drop it' on command. I was sort of confused by the tug rules, just because the other thread on here talking about it. I wasn't sure if she was allowed to win? But if you say not to let it go, I won't. I really appreciate all the advice, thank you :)

So far things have been going better, haven't had a single growl or anything, the kids come home tomorrow now that I'm feeling better, so we'll see how that goes. You all have given me so much to think about. And we decided we are going to try to see how she is as an adult, unless things take a big turn for the worse. We have faith that if we just keep working with her she will be a good dog. Maybe more work than a mellow tempered dog, but we are okay with that.

I also got Lilith's thyroid results back, they are normal thankfully. I knew there was a good chance it would come back normal, but I figured it was best to get it out of the way. Thanks again everyone, We'll keep you all updated :)

Just a random thought...Pan is the same age as Lilith, and he's been taking treats harder lately too, ever since his new teeth started coming in.  I know the puppy teeth are smaller and sharper, but the adult teeth can really chomp!  I do all his obedience training and imprinting with food and for SchH we like a really prancy heel where the dog is collecting in the rear and pushing up, so basically I have chunks in my hand and he's constantly chomping them, no real way to have him taking it nice.  I'll probably just put my leather handling gloves on soon!

As for tug, I'd let her win.  IMO tug is about tapping into a dog's drives and just having fun, I don't see it as a good way of pounding in NILIF or trying to train impulse control.  That's too much to ask for such a young puppy - getting them all hyped up for a toy and then expecting them to instantly drop it or always give it back without trying to snatch it.  If you like playing it I'd keep doing it.  It will build her confidence and motivate her to enjoy interacting with you.  You could use it to loosen her up when she has a really good day as far as doing NILIF.

Kindredspirits

I'd say nearing early evening she seems grumpier some days. Lilith isn't always like that. I will try feeding Lilith earlier and see if it helps. She does always seem hungry. Thinking on it, the only thing I've really changed, which was a couple weeks ago, was I went from feeding her three times a day to twice on my trainers suggestion. So I will try going back to three meals a day too.

and he is still hungry early

Liesje

As for tug, I'd let her win.  IMO tug is about tapping into a dog's drives and just having fun, I don't see it as a good way of pounding in NILIF or trying to train impulse control.  That's too much to ask for such a young puppy - getting them all hyped up for a toy and then expecting them to instantly drop it or always give it back without trying to snatch it.  If you like playing it I'd keep doing it.  It will build her confidence and motivate her to enjoy interacting with you.  You could use it to loosen her up when she has a really good day as far as doing NILIF.

Hi Liesje

In a performance home with handlers that were pretty relaxed i would agree with you. I just have real doubts that in many homes that succesful play can ever be on the menu because of the inabilty of many of these households to cope with the increased expression of these drives.

It is a dicey one, and i think it is hard to call for any trainer as to which way to go. 

I have got even more radical, i think that so many households have become so passive that dogs from performance stock or with perfromance charecteristics are an accident waiting to happen and may not be able to be housed in some of these households. I reckon that it is a brave person who turns around and owns up to it, and lets the dog be rehomed if neccessary.

Thanks for answering my questions Spiritdogs :) Lilith did have great bite inhibition, just lately she started biting hard to get treats, not sure why.

I don't know either, but it's not appropriate.  Don't let her practice that behavior.  One thing you can do is feed her flat handed and not present your fingertips.  

Lilith growling only happens sometimes when I'm petting her. I never correct her, I just keep petting her til she stops. In this case, I think it would be better to simply get up and walk away if she growls.  I would not pat a growling dog - growling is a warning, not a behavior to be comforted until it stops.  It's her way of saying that something is wrong and she doesn't relish the attention at the moment.  It's quite possible that she feels she cannot get you to stop, but by golly she can get that kid to stop!  You may have inadvertantly set her up for failure by doing that, so that's a response I would change asap.

If she growls at anyone else (which honestly doesn't happen often at all) I crate her.  I don't hit her or yell or anything. I read way back when that that would cause silent bites. So I don't do that. I do already make her work for almost everything, except I never made her work for toys.  I know now that she needs to do something before she gets the toy. I also won't leave toys lying around anymore. I just never thought of that as being part of NILIF. Then you are *not* making her work for everything, and in this case, I would.  You never have to be unpleasant, just insistent.

Theres no solid relationship with my son and Lilith because of how mouthy she was for the first couple weeks we got her.  My son is a very sensitive child and just avoided her after that.   This is one reason I often try to get parents to get adult dogs that are already good with kids.  Too many times, people aren't prepared for how mouthy pups are, and they don't get them playing with other puppies early enough (I start mine no older than ten weeks!)  Hes not outright afraid of her, sometimes he does pet her or tries to play with her. But for the most part he just keeps his distance. Distance = fear, or at least caution, and that doesn't speak to having a good relationship with a dog, because this type of dog is not going to defer to that.

I am going to get him to start giving her treats and help with training when he feels comfortable. And don't worry, I would never in a million years leave any  dog unsupervised with my children :)  We actually do play tug, Lilith knows how to 'drop it' on command. I was sort of confused by the tug rules, just because the other thread on here talking about it. I wasn't sure if she was allowed to win? But if you say not to let it go, I won't. I really appreciate all the advice, thank you :)  In some cases, I let dogs win.  In this case, I would not.  However, I would also not yank the tug from her to keep her from winning.  This is a dog that I would not let have the tug - I would always have hold of the other end, and trade back for it with a tidbit.  That way, the dog sees the tug as an object I am temporarily sharing for some fun, but which I have the power to have back any time I want.

So far things have been going better, haven't had a single growl or anything, the kids come home tomorrow now that I'm feeling better, so we'll see how that goes. You all have given me so much to think about. And we decided we are going to try to see how she is as an adult, unless things take a big turn for the worse.  We have faith that if we just keep working with her she will be a good dog. Maybe more work than a mellow tempered dog, but we are okay with that.  I hope that you will get her in to a good clicker class and keep going to more than one - if you have a dog like this, it's helpful to develop many skills to keep her working and under control.  They need mental exercise and they need to have a job to do, so her job can be obedience.  Take your son to class with you.  You handle the dog, but he will hear the correct way to do things from the teacher also.  That way, once Lilith is consistently listening to you, he can start with some of the cues, too, while you supervise.

I also got Lilith's thyroid results back, they are normal thankfully. I knew there was a good chance it would come back normal, but I figured it was best to get it out of the way. Thanks again everyone, We'll keep you all updated :)  Just another thought - if she growls when you are patting her, I would mention that to your vet, just in case something else physical could be going on.  I would want a baseline CBC, too, on a dog with behavior issues, to see if anything else is out of whack.

poodleOwned, I see your concern but IMO a dog has drive or not.  If you cannot find ways of letting a dog appropriately express his/her drive then you will just end up with more frustration and work.  I see more and more this attitude (NOT you but just in general) of people getting whatever breed they want as a pet and thinking that all they have to do is socialize and train it the way THEY want and that's how the dog will be.  That is just not true a lot of the time.  We cannot ignore genetics and traits that are inherent to the dog.  They can either be channeled into work and fun, or the dog will become destructive and do "bad" behaviors.

I think people just read WAY too much into tug.  Why would you play a game with a dog and never let the dog win?!?!  To me that just makes no sense.  Tug is not about winning the tug.  It is about playing that chase-bite-tug-kill game with the handler.  Dogs want to PLAY tug they don't want to take the tug away and just sit there with it by themselves.  That is why dogs who do a lot of tugging are the dogs that always bring the tug back on their own and push it into the handler's hands.  For those not comfortable with it I would just not play it and find another way to deal with the dog's drives and energy, something that is actually fun and enriching for both dog an handler.  Tug is all about prey drive; If I had to bet, I would be that the bite described in the OP was a correction from the dog to the child, having nothing to do with prey drive.

Liesje

poodleOwned, I see your concern but IMO a dog has drive or not.  If you cannot find ways of letting a dog appropriately express his/her drive then you will just end up with more frustration and work.  I see more and more this attitude (NOT you but just in general) of people getting whatever breed they want as a pet and thinking that all they have to do is socialize and train it the way THEY want and that's how the dog will be.  That is just not true a lot of the time.  We cannot ignore genetics and traits that are inherent to the dog.  They can either be channeled into work and fun, or the dog will become destructive and do "bad" behaviors.

I agree. One of the reasons that i have withdrawn form working with "pet" dogs is that other than the fact that i am an amateur and have stuff all time and need to ration it, the key for many of these dogs such as BCs , Labs, GSDs  living in urban areas is a level of stimulation that many owners just aren't prepared to give these dogs.

As a scientist, i can't shout it form the roof tops, (i don't have rigourous evidence)  but depsite sort of band aid training to get over the major behavourial issues, these dogs seem doomed to a lifetime of boredom and frustration. I do not want to enable that.

Australia has one of the highest dog ownerships in the world, but many of these dogs don't see outside their backyard. Now consider say a Lab in winter who basically sees the owners for food and lives in the backyard. If it DOESN'T dig up the back yard or do something similar then it is a freak!

Liesje- Lol well I'm glad to see its somewhat normal, and ya those big teeth hurt lol. I think your tug rules make sense, we have alot of fun with tug. We sort of do a combination of tug and fetch which she really seems to enjoy and it does tucker her out :) And I agree with you about prey drive and what not. It was nothing like that at all. It was a correction.

Karen- I've been watching Lilith closely and I found 10am and 5pm seem to be the best so far. After 5pm she seems whinier. So I'm going to try this for a while :) Thanks for suggesting that :)

spiritdogs

I don't know either, but it's not appropriate.  Don't let her practice that behavior.  One thing you can do is feed her flat handed and not present your fingertips.

I've been doing that since you suggested it :)   

spiritdogs

In this case, I think it would be better to simply get up and walk away if she growls.  I would not pat a growling dog - growling is a warning, not a behavior to be comforted until it stops.  It's her way of saying that something is wrong and she doesn't relish the attention at the moment.  It's quite possible that she feels she cannot get you to stop, but by golly she can get that kid to stop!  You may have inadvertantly set her up for failure by doing that, so that's a response I would change asap.

I'm sorry but this is really confusing. Everyone has something different to say on this. I honestly don't know who to believe or which way to handle it. Lilith isn't ever full on growling at me, its hard to explain, its like a grumbly growl, but not menacing or anything. I just don't know what to do when it happens. We haven't even had a single growl or anything since the correction she gave my son on monday.

spiritdogs

Then you are *not* making her work for everything, and in this case, I would.  You never have to be unpleasant, just insistent.

That was the only thing and I realized it was a problem when you guys said that. I just didn't know.

spiritdogs

This is one reason I often try to get parents to get adult dogs that are already good with kids.  Too many times, people aren't prepared for how mouthy pups are, and they don't get them playing with other puppies early enough (I start mine no older than ten weeks!) 

I'm a little hurt by this assumption. I was 100% prepared for mouthing, I think anyone expecting to get a retriever and not have mouthing is silly. I knew what I was getting into. And Lilith was around puppies as soon as I was able to get her her second vaccine (which was the facility rules) until then she played with Skyline. She started classes Dec 1st and recently passed basic obedience class.

spiritdogs

I hope that you will get her in to a good clicker class and keep going to more than one - if you have a dog like this, it's helpful to develop many skills to keep her working and under control.  They need mental exercise and they need to have a job to do, so her job can be obedience.  Take your son to class with you.  You handle the dog, but he will hear the correct way to do things from the teacher also.  That way, once Lilith is consistently listening to you, he can start with some of the cues, too, while you supervise.

She was in two clicker classes. She will be going in advanced once she recovers from surgery. I feel like I keep having to repeat myself, I do tons of mental exercises with Lilith, I am working with Rally-O and when shes one we are going to either stick with Rally-O or go for Agility. 

spiritdogs

Just another thought - if she growls when you are patting her, I would mention that to your vet, just in case something else physical could be going on.  I would want a baseline CBC, too, on a dog with behavior issues, to see if anything else is out of whack.

I will mention is to my vet, thank you for the suggestion :)

poodleowned- I'm really sorry and I'm not trying to be rude but I agree with very little of what you said and some of the things you have said have come across as offensive. I did my research before getting this breed, I have gone above and beyond with training and making sure she has enough to do mentally and physically and its incredibly unfair for you to just assume things about me. 

Anywho aside from responding to everyone, I wanted to update you guys a little on what I have been doing so far with Lilith. I've started socializing back at square one (I do think shes started another fear stage), doing desensitizing and learning about her threshold. I'm also teaching her the word 'calm' something I should have done a while ago. Shes learning when I say 'calm' to politely sit and well calm down lol then I click and treat. I know what some of her triggers are- kids running around screaming, doorbell and cars being excited is 99% of the time when she growls (which like I said isn't all the time), oh and when she plays with toys. Those things she just can't seem to control herself well and starts doing the amazing Toller scream, jumping and sometimes growl. I'm also getting my relatives on board, no more petting her when she demands attention or jumps, I'm currently writing up a list of rules to print out and put on the wall. I don't care how silly they think it is, I need everyone who comes into my house to follow my rules with her or I won't be able to fix these behaviors. They absolutely have to ignore her til shes calm and I am going to get them to use the command 'calm' too with her.  I'm not sure if I'm doing this  right, but so far it seems to be working a bit.  Shes doing better with the cars and my sister came over today with her 10 month old and 4yrs old and Lilith did great. She started trying to jump up, but I said 'calm' and she sat with her butt wiggling so my sister pet her. She also laid beside my sister while she sat on the floor and gave kisses to her 10month old very gently and happily. She tried to jump a few times when we stood up, but I had her on a leash and just told her 'calm' she sat and I clicked and treated. She did great.

So far everything is going much better already. I haven't seen my trainer yet, but I will on Wednesday when I go to Dog Club with Skyline. Lilith will be recovering from her spay, but I want to work out some details, make sure I'm doing things right and see what else she suggests I do.

Thanks again everyone :)

Kindredspirits

I'm really sorry and I'm not trying to be rude but I agree with very little of what you said and some of the things you have said have come across as offensive. I did my research before getting this breed, I have gone above and beyond with training and making sure she has enough to do mentally and physically and its incredibly unfair for you to just assume things about me. 

 

Thats what forums are for, sometimes we agree sometimes we don't.

I certainly didn't mean to be offensive and was assuming zero one way or the other. Nothing i wrote was aimed at you, it was purposely generalised. I am not a liscensed trainer and don't wish to give specific advice over the internet.

I don't assume anything at all until i see the dog. My experience has lead me to believe that it is hard to be subjective about your own dog. I was just offering my own experience for what it is worth. I am quite jaded about pets only households, and also think it is dam dangerous to give a hell of a lot of advice about a dog other than to get some help . I am glad that you are doing this.

 I guess that i own dogs because i get tremendous enjoyment out of them. I have succesfully rehabilited my younger dog that had what would seem like horrendous behaviours to many. My older female dog had significant fear issues and has turned out to be a very succesful trialing dog and an absolute charecter as well. I have helped others do similar. I hope that you start to enjoy Lilith too, and move out of what can be a very troublesome and worrying time. I just wrote from my experience. It isn't fun for example keeping a dog sub threshold for long periods of time, watching all her class mates go on and do things while she was too firghtened of dog class noises and trial nosies. The people who supported me are strong friends 4 years down the track.

The enjoyment bit is there in spades. I an intensely proud of her. Tonight i was doing a Variable Surface Track across busy roads and she didn't care.

I guess that there is another overarching issue that exists. Tonight my home town Christchurch lies in ruins after an earthquake. There will be SAR dogs out there looking for injured people. I am dam grateful that the people who bred these dogs stuck to their guns and bred dogs with behaviours that  might be even more challenging than Lilith's but had enormous desire to work. The problem is that many of our working and gun dogs look the goods but don't have the goods any more.

Kindredspirits

So far everything is going much better already. I haven't seen my trainer yet, but I will on Wednesday when I go to Dog Club with Skyline. Lilith will be recovering from her spay,

be aware a spay is a major change and shift in hormonal balance. She may be MORE grumpy or completely off the wall for a month or more following this. I really would not push her too much until you are sure she is feeling 100%. Spay's also have a been known to increase aggro behaviors with bitches tho I believe that relates more to other dogs BUT just be aware.

Also...much as I love trainers keep in the back of your mind the practicality of the suggestions offered. If people do not live with kids and dogs 100% of the time I really do not think their perspective is always spot on as far as what is "doable". That is MY feeling. As with anything, experience counts. People may have experience with dogs and with kids, but until you live with both, from babyhood right thru old age for the dog you really cannot see how DIFFICULT it sometimes is to do. Sometimes you NEED to accept that you cannot do everything suggested and focus on a few things that will emphasize safety and sanity, and still live your life and be a mother and SO on top of everything else.

To be brutally honest sometimes when you have kids you straight out do not have TIME or energy to remember to make the dog sit or down before you feed it...and deal with it when it WON'T. Sometimes you just need to GET THINGS DONE. LOL. One Mom to another...it doesn't get much easier from here out, LOL! Always be aware of your limits because if you aren't or if you deny what they are, that is when things break down and seem to "sneak up on ya".

((hugs))

Gina is right, even though I don't have kids, I often find myself turning to management because I simply don't have the time or energy (or know that I cannot be absolutely consistent) trying to use behavior modification.  Take begging for example, my dogs are not really trained not to beg, but they don't *get* to beg because they don't have access to us while we eat or prepare food.  They don't counter surf because I don't let them at the counter.  They aren't specifically trained not to jump up on people who come over, but they never have that opportunity because they start out crated until they have shown they can be quiet and relaxed and if the guests ask for the dogs to come out.  With multiple dogs, multiple jobs, and only so many hours in the day, a lot of things are just easier to manage than train away.  And to be honest, I think the dogs would have it that way.  They'd rather be restricted to a certain area while we eat so they are free to play with each other during that time, and then play with me after, then spend all that time being trained to not to this or go do that while I'm trying to eat or prepare food.  Coke would rather just go out in the yard on a tie-out where he is safe and there is a clear boundary for him than use all his free time in the yard being trained a drop dead recall and where exactly he is allowed to go off leash.  Pan would rather go in his crate with a marrow bone for half an hour than be constantly interrupted and redirected when trying to chew on inappropriate things.