I need help-Lilith bit my son in the face

Sorry just realized I never responded to everyone :)

Lorib- I don't know about the whole Alpha thing. Lilith is not allowed on any furniture unless I invite her up (and thats only when the kids aren't home or awake). I never repeat a command more than once (as my trainer taught me) and I do not back down. If I say stay, it means stay, if I say sit it means sit. She knows 'relax' and 'at ease' those commands mean she is free to move when I tell her something. Lilith is fed Wellness Super5 mix puppy which is only- 28% protein, my trainer does not agree with feeding dogs food with a protein content higher than 34%, Liliths food is not the issue. Shes also very much so exercised. I will be able to manage her, but like I said before, if I've tried everything and I just can't get her to a good point, I will return her to the breeder :)

Beejou- Thank you :)

3girls- Yes Lilith is crate trained. No the growling does not happen everytime. Umm I'd say when shes really hyper theres more likely she'll be growly at me when I pet her, like I said it seems like shes annoyed or something. Lilith does get plenty of quiet time as well. :)

Bonita- Thank you for your reply :)I can promise you I never under estimated this breed at all. If anything, I was expecting far more to deal with energy wise especially. We do things that Tollers love, fetching is a big one, but we also do Rally-O and practice Agility. I can't exactly get her out there and Toll, but I'm doing the best I can to make her happy. No thats not what happened with my son :) Lilith was laying on the floor, I was beside her on one side, my son was by her back on the other side. We were both petting her, I bent over and gave Lilith a kiss (which Lilith willingly will reach upa nd give me kisses so its not like I demand them) and he asked if he could give her a kiss. I said yes. And well, you all know what happened. I wouldn't say she was in a submissive position, but then again my idea of submissive position might be different. I won't as spiritdogs said allow him to kiss or hug her. But I do like your suggestion of getting her to shake a paw with him. When he is ready for that we'll try it. Right now I'm just going to take it very slow with him by helping with feeding. Thank you very much for the advice :)

Lori- I do make Lilith work for everything so does my husband :) The kids are harder because they are only 2.5yrs old and my son is almost 5yrs old. Aistlinn does help with training. But for the most part its me and my husband doing everything. Lilith used to only have to sit for things, now we use downs, high fives, shake a paw. Shes also not allowed to drink without us saying -take it- and she has to sit first,w e don't leave resources lying around. I didn't realize it wasn't okay for her to bring the toys to my kids, I just thought it was a good sign, not a pushy sign. But I will make sure Lilith sits for them or something before they can play. I heard the same thing too about correcting growls, it would cause instant bites, but I have never corrected Lilith for biting other than using a crate as sort of a time out. I've been trying so hard to re-teach Lilith gentle, its like shes forgets it sometimes and she was so good with that before. When Lilith gets wound up I would love for her to listen to 'gentle'. I will work harder on that. Thank you so much for the help. If I have anymore questions I will send you a PM :)

I have to say it again, because I mean it, I'm so grateful for everyones advice and suggestions and stories. I am going to do my best to get a good handle on this. Lilith is not a vicious dog by any means, but I know she needs some work. I know we can do this and like I said, if we've unfortunately tried and failed then we will not hesitate to return her. Thank you again :)

I have a rather outspoken dog. I don't really call him dominant, but he is highly opportunistic and he tries things out. I made an effort to break down barriers with him so that he wasn't the least bit afraid of me, which is kind of risky, particularly with a proactive, confident dog. As Temple Grandin says, it is an animal's fear of people that inhibits their aggression.

When my dog was 16 weeks old the vet tried to look at his teeth and he told her firmly "NO". She said she had never been seriously worried about a puppy that way before. She got some roast chicken out and he became more open-minded. We taught him to accept having his teeth looked at through lots and lots of counter-conditioning. It took weeks of daily practice.

Anyway, I have no idea if it's anything like your dog, but I guess my approach to anything a dog doesn't like that I want them to like is to just train it like any other behaviour. Just food for thought. 

Kindredspirits

Shes also not allowed to drink without us saying -take it-

I believe water is a free resource. If Tootsie wants a drink she doesn't have to work for it. Especially not with a growing pup.  JMO, though.

I respect your opinion, but I don't leave water down. I give them water very frequently, but when they are done drinking I pick it up :)

Kindredspirits

I have to say it again, because I mean it, I'm so grateful for everyones advice and suggestions and stories. I am going to do my best to get a good handle on this. Lilith is not a vicious dog by any means, but I know she needs some work. I know we can do this and like I said, if we've unfortunately tried and failed then we will not hesitate to return her. Thank you again :)

I think that i may give you a slightly different slant on things. Even very stable tough dogs can get upset by children. They move weird and we hear so many legends about these great dogs that have the crap kicked out of them by children and never do anything. So we set the bar very high for dogs. My now departed dog once casued a child to bite his lip because he barked at the child when it tried to poke him in the eye. Unfortunately the child was a stranger and it very nearly cost Cadbury his life. Since then i have been ultra cautious. Children may only pat my dogs under my supervision . I manage my dogs around children. I do not expect them to be miracle dogs.

 Now one of my dogs does  a lot of licking /kissing and to me it is right up there with other fear and displacement behaviours. It is at the very least an appeasment behaviour. I don't find it cute at all, i find it worrisome and avoid the situations where he resorts to this behaviour. many poeple though see it differently. If i see my dog needing to lick, he is out of there end of story. He is nervous/ anxious and bad things can happen.

 I am careful of resources as battles over them can lead to some pretty tough fights.Not for any other reason. Water has never caused a fight, and i prefer free access. While NILF can increase compliance by making humans think about self reinforcing it isn't the be all and end all.

This situation that you have is terribly serious. You need a good trainer and support. You need some personal help too!! You need to talk out with some good people how you feel inside about the conflicts going on. There is a sort of tone, may be the way that you write that suggsts that it might be a good option to check out. But i am male and in a different age group and environment and not a great people person.

  You need to check your trainer out a bit. I don't know about where you live, but many trainers talk the talk and aren't capable of walking the walk. I call them fog horns. You hear them over the top of every one else!! I look for some pretty weird things, i like to see trainers that are relaxed with their dogs, having a good time, realsitic, human and aren't too worried about things.In my field it is essential tha they can train dogs that are assessed either in very formal environments or TV, film etc.

At the end of the day we are responsible for our dogs and sometimes it is pretty confusing.  My dog my responsibilty.

NILIF might not be the be all and end all but it needs to be implimented here for sure. It will get her knowing what you expect her to do right away.  And, stop some of that pushy behavior she is showing.

willowchow

NILIF might not be the be all and end all but it needs to be implimented here for sure. It will get her knowing what you expect her to do right away.  And, stop some of that pushy behavior she is showing.

 

Nilf on it's own will do neither. It is a method of establishing in the dogs mind we hope that all resources come from the owner so therefore the owner is worth taking note of. Dogs need to be trained to do what we want. Nilf doesn't do that. Unless i show my dog another way of behaving then other than corrections it has no way of understanding what is expected of it.

I will use my own dog now as an example. Sam is on his third home. He is very lively and energetic. He will easily jump as high as my shoulder to greet me. What he has learnt is that if he sits FAST, then there are all kinds of rewards including my attention. He has also learnt to jump all over the place to touch my hand on cue. I have heard the word pushy and dominant used with him. Neither are useful for training and one is entirely wrong.

I have a real problem with attaching motives to behaviour without seeing the dog. A motive like "pushy" is very, well at least unhelpful. It often means that the worng method in the wrong place gets used. My experience has suggested to ignore motive until a real picture of the dog is seen.

 As a caring cautious trainer the only thing that needs to get implemented on an internet forum is enough questions to get the OP to the correct help. Thinking that NILF will fix this is plain dangerous.

Jewliee- I pet her chest, chin, sometimes the top of her head or her sides. There doesn't seem to be any one place that causes the growl. She does like her chest being pet and the spot between her eyes. Is there anywhere I can read mroe about dog message? Thank you :)

Poodleowned- To be honest I'm not really sure how to respond to you with some of your comments. No my dogs don't fight over water but thats not why I pick it up. I pick it up because Skyline digs in it if left down, Lilith will try to carry the bowl and my 2.5yrs old thinks its pretty fun swimming pool for her toys it also makes it easier to judge when Lilith has to go outside to potty and yes when I do set the bowl down I make both dogs wait in a sit while I put it down then tell them to 'take it'. Its what I've always done and will always do. And my trainer doesn't just talk the talk and I do trust her, I've known her for quite a few months and have gone to two of her classes as well as the dog club she has at her facility.

Lori -I do NILIF as I've said :) Lilith does have many rules and knows them, I've kept them consistant since the day I brought her home. Thats why I'm baffled, I've done all of this and this is just started getting bad a few weeks ago, she was always a bit pushy, but not like she has been lately :)

""Jewliee- I pet her chest, chin, sometimes the top of her head or her sides. There doesn't seem to be any one place that causes the growl. She does like her chest being pet and the spot between her eyes. Is there anywhere I can read mroe about dog message? Thank you :) ""

 I guess that i have huge concern for your safety and your dog's safety. One of the reasons that using the word "pushy" bothers me is that if your dog is a bit body sensitive and finds being patted unpleasant, it may mean that one of the better methods for dealing with this is not considered. I told you a little bit about my boy Sam. Sam doesn't like people patting him that aren't confident. It scares him and he growls. If i didn't look at the picture properly, i could suggest that it is becuase he is "pushy". He is in some other areas. What i do need to do is work on him thinking about that. I am worried becuase a hell of a lot of trainers still use methods with dogs growling that actually make the problem worse not better or hide the problem.

""Lilith does have many rules and knows them, I've kept them consistant since the day I brought her home. ""

You have no way of knowing this to be honest. To give you an example, i can almost guarantee that my oldest dog who is a regualr triallist and obeys me well, will not drop if i stand on my head and tell her to drop. That is becasue she is a dog and a specialist and finds it hard to generalise. Despite my dogs intelligence, i reduce the rules to a bare minimum.  Humans don't understand dogs and don't think like dogs.We add cues that make it harder rather than easier for dogs. We forget context. We change the context on them. I use very few cues at all in the ring for my dog. Most are signals not verbal. Right now she is lying down on the floor besides me. I have no rules for her here.

I keep rules to the minimum. Basically, don't pee and pooh in the house and play outside. Keep of the kitchen bench and the table. That is it.

Oh and when i engage your attention, do what i tell you. It is simple relaxing stuff for all of us.

The human rules for interacting to my dogs are 

1)talk calmy.

2)Ask the dogs to do something rather than complain about a behaviour. 

Kindredspirits

Is there anywhere I can read mroe about dog message?

http://www.monkeysee.com/play/2165-how-to-massage-your-dog-s-head-and-neck

http://www.horseanddogmassage.com/procedure/pages/pet_massage_dvd.cfm?id=61

 I  found these on my own a while back when i was looking to do some massage on Bugsy

I just had another thought; is there a time of day that she is more grumbly?  Bugsy used to have what I call bewitching hour when he was a pup, it was the hour or so before I fed him, he was completely out of control.  I wound up feeding him earlier and he was fine so his insanity was based on hunger LOL

If you were to see a pattern with the time of day that might help you determine if it is something like she's hungry or that she is tired/overwhelmed and needs some quiet/crate time

Just wanted to say that it looks like everyone has there own opinions here, but they all want to help. If  i was in your exact situation i would give her a try but wouldn't go more than another month. IMO if she growls a you then she does not respect you and could eventually be dangerous to you, her "leader" too. But i also think that Lilith seems to think that she is the leader. Is it possible that you are doing so much "nilif" that life at times stinks for her, like she has to always ask for something. Water?? I see you problems with you kids using as a swimming pool for toys:) , but i think that there is alot of things that are going on that are making her feel grouchy. My dog would carry his dishes around when they were empty (as a puppy) I fixed that with always keeping the water bowl full and removing the plastic food dish from him. I replaced it with stainless steel (not as fun to carry around). I completely disagree with no water at all times. you can't always be right there to see if she wants a drink and since she is a puppy she needs more to drink. I think you have too many rules,and have too much stuff going on for her. Maybe she's just overly stimulated. why is she almost always tethered?

I don't mean to sound like i'm critisizing you, but it's constructive critisism. You are the one that has to do the work we all are just listening to your story. But from the ouside this is how I see it. You should give it a month, and if she doesn't get any better bring her back to the breeder. 

Karen- Thank you for the links. I'd say nearing early evening she seems grumpier some days. Lilith isn't always like that. I will try feeding Lilith earlier and see if it helps. She does always seem hungry. Thinking on it, the only thing I've really changed, which was a couple weeks ago, was I went from feeding her three times a day to twice on my trainers suggestion. So I will try going back to three meals a day too. I'll watch her more carefully and if she seems overwhelmed, I'll put her in her crate for a break.

Karla- I've already answered all of those questions. Its hard to convey exactly how things are here, but I'm really no more structured than anyone that uses gate or crates. Yes I pick up the water bowl, no its not hurting her, yes she picks it up after she dumps the water out, yes they are steel bowls and skyline since she was a puppy has always dug in the water bowl and yes my daughter thinks its a great toy. I know lots of people who pick up the water bowls. Its not like my dogs are dehydrated or dying for water. I give them plenty of water very frequently like I said. The only times Lilith is tethered is when my kids are up and even then shes gets frequent playtime like I've already said. It might sound strictt but its not. It might sound liek alot of rules because I'm trying to explain to everyone how my household functions, but its not. I'm trying to be as detailed as I can. Everything I have done is not in anyway to hurt my dogs or stress them out. I have been consulting my trainer with everything I've been doing especially if I'm not sure about something. I am doing the best I can. And no I don't intend on having her tethered to me or my husband for much longer. Its just easier when we are cooking or cleaning we tether her to us or crate/ gate her to keep an eye on her because she is a puppy, she does get into things. I'm sure if I just crated her I wouldn't be so critiqued about how I was handling things. But we love having her with us. So we tether instead of crate when we get busy. Also Lilith is NOT a vicious dog. She doesn't growl all the time or even everyday, its random. She has only ever bitten once, which is what this whole thread was about. She didn't break skin, she didn't cause bruising. That doesn't make it right, but that also doesn't make her vicious. And I don't buy the whole alpha thing. I just don't. I don't care who agrees with me or not but thats not how I think. We've done Clicker training since day one, because I don't believe in harsh corrections, the worst we say is 'uh uh uh' when she gets into something.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as grumpy, I'm in pain, when they said friday was the worst after wisdom teeth they weren't kidding. If Lilith does have too much to do maybe it will get better now that classes are over and we won't be doing them again for at least two months. I'll try only taking her to dog club on wednesdays and bring Skyline sometimes instead. On the 24th Lilith gets spayed so she won't have much to do for a few weeks. Maybe then I'll get a better idea on how much she wants to do. I've also just ordered the books, should be here in a week or so. I'll keep you all up to date with how Lilith is doing.

Vanessa, if you want PM me.  I'm not up for getting into back and forths with anyone on here.  You've known me long enough to know what Willow is like so. . .I'm on the chat too.

Karla Welch

If  i was in your exact situation i would give her a try but wouldn't go more than another month. IMO if she growls a you then she does not respect you and could eventually be dangerous to you, her "leader" too. But i also think that Lilith seems to think that she is the leader.

Actually unless i see this dog i won't say any of this, and it can encourage sad stuff for the dog and person. The number one reason for dogs growling is discomfort or fear.

The leadership thing is often a hat looking for a head..i.e not useful at all. Sure it is a good idea to fill behavourial vacums and act in a clam assertive way towards dogs, but the whole leadership thing has got out of hand. It often creates guilt in the owner and results in inappropite behaviour towards the dog  .

I tend to own dogs that could fill columns like this, by choice. They are the best. :)

Luci worked out that screaming would get her what she wanted when she came home. It didn't. She can be an absolute brat.

 I have already told you enough about Sam.

Cadbury hated being touched as a puppy, but we taught him different. He had a list of "problems" that would fill pages.It basically came down to a dog bred for working in a household not ready for it. We changed.

I have no troubles by doing basic simple things. I sometimes don't even enforce my commands, and let stays go.

None of these things is the key at all. The key is to furfill the dogs needs, work on the behavourial things,listen to your dog, and learn to assert when required and to relax and love your dogs. .

Behaviour has two components, genetic and trained. We are lucky that the trained bit is very strong.