I need help-Lilith bit my son in the face

Agile, I totally agree and I believe she's said that here, somewhere.  It's such a shame she can't find a vet behaviorist closer.  Kindred, you might try contacting the person Julie linked you up with and ask if they would consider a video consultation. 

 I will be honest- while I think it's a good thing to consult a behaviorist normally, I would return this puppy to the breeder. While I do think that these short-term issues can be resolved, I think that her basic personality is going to require a very high level of maintenance, management, and quite likely an outlet for her energy as well. While IIRC, you got her as a working prospect, dogs like this generally are pretty tough as PSDs for anyone but someone who really, really loves training and finds it rewarding enough to do a lot of it even when their energy is limited. I think Lilith is a tough cookie and a great dog, but not the right one for your family.

ALl that said, I do think that whatever decision you end up making in the end, you will feel best about it if you make it with all information in hand- evaluation from your trainer, video evaluation by a veterinary behaviorist (I know there's one at Cornell who does consults for a long distance but I would have to dig up the name), bloodwork, etc. More information doesn't always make a decision easier but it usually helps with getting a decision you are truly comfortable with in the end.

Cait

I do agree with the others that have said the she is probably going to be a lifetime project dog. That's something you really need to think heavily on. I know the feelings that go along with the concept of returning a dog to a breeder, or up to rescue, etc,: you feel guilty, like you failed, like you are giving up on something you love. There's no avoiding those feelings imo. But if it comes down to it, make a rational list. Is the dog stressed and may be less stressed in a different home? Will you be less stresses? Will your kids be less stressed? So on and so forth.

I do understand though that you want to try all options first and can't blame you for that either.

Have you spoken with orangedog who put you in contact with Lillith's breeder, and who owns both Tollers and Dobes?  I'd have to believe she wouldn't hook you up with anything less than a highly reputable breeder, so I hope your discussion with the breeder get serious and you work the directions she/he gives you regarding how to handle Lillith.

Pwca

 I will be honest- while I think it's a good thing to consult a behaviorist normally, I would return this puppy to the breeder. While I do think that these short-term issues can be resolved, I think that her basic personality is going to require a very high level of maintenance, management, and quite likely an outlet for her energy as well. While IIRC, you got her as a working prospect, dogs like this generally are pretty tough as PSDs for anyone but someone who really, really loves training and finds it rewarding enough to do a lot of it even when their energy is limited. I think Lilith is a tough cookie and a great dog, but not the right one for your family.

ALl that said, I do think that whatever decision you end up making in the end, you will feel best about it if you make it with all information in hand- evaluation from your trainer, video evaluation by a veterinary behaviorist (I know there's one at Cornell who does consults for a long distance but I would have to dig up the name), bloodwork, etc. More information doesn't always make a decision easier but it usually helps with getting a decision you are truly comfortable with in the end.

 

Cait

My biter broke my heart for a long time and thank heavens he didn't bite somebody who could sue me (like the neighor kid). I love my dog and I've worked my butt off with him but I would never ever keep him if I had a child. Just my personal experience and opinion. Once a dog bites, it's impossible to trust him. Trust me--I've been managing and training my dog since the day he did this, nearly 5 years ago. It's great to get advice and information, but it really comes down to figuring out what to do after the shock and hurt wears off.

miranadobe

Have you spoken with orangedog who put you in contact with Lillith's breeder, and who owns both Tollers and Dobes?  I'd have to believe she wouldn't hook you up with anything less than a highly reputable breeder, so I hope your discussion with the breeder get serious and you work the directions she/he gives you regarding how to handle Lillith

Vanessa and I have spoken a lot through PMs regarding Lilith and Tollers in general, but Vanessa found Lilith's breeder before contacting me. I didn't have any involvement at all when it came to her family choosing which breeder they'd go to. That said, I don't know Lilith's breeder personally, but I have heard of her dogs and the things I've heard were not negative in the slightest. I do know that the breeder does not breed often, and has only had a couple of litters... but I don't believe that should have any bearing on her puppies' temperaments. Unless there was aggression somewhere in the line that Lilith's breeder doesn't know about, and it's quite possible that the breeder Lilith's breeder got her dogs from doesn't know about either. Not everybody keeps in contact with their breeders unfortunately (nor do they return the dogs, despite a contract, if the dog has an issue), so it is possible that there could be some iffy dogs in the line.

I will be the first to admit that there are more spooky Tollers out there than I would like to see. Temperament unfortunately is something I feel needs to be worked on more. A lot of Tollers are very shy and insecure, and they should not be. They should be reserved, but still friendly and happy dogs. Lilith obviously is not shy though, and in every way aside from the aggression, sounds like a really nice puppy from the things I've heard about her. The only times I have seen any hint of aggressive behaviour in the way of growling or barking in this breed, it has been a result of fear. I did know one aggressive Toller, but his history was unknown. We adopted him from the city shelter, and he was my first experience having a Toller. He would bite out of the blue, and was just not a nice dog. I have no idea why he was like that, but aside from him, I have not heard of any other truly aggressive Toller cases. The times I have heard about aggression in the breed were because the owner was far too lenient with the dog, and the dog had no rules or boundaries. Having conversed with Vanessa multiple times, I believe that she is a great dog owner, and has done things right by Lilith.

I would not blame this on vaccines right away. It could be a possibility, yes, given the breed's history with vaccinosis, but I do feel that vaccines are often blamed way too quickly in this breed if the dog is displaying undesirable behaviour. 

It sounds to me like Nevyn does make Lilith nervous, which could be why she bit him, but I don't know why she's being growly toward you. I think the worst thing you could do when she's being grouchy toward you would be to stop petting her. Otherwise she'll associate a growl with getting what she wants, which is not good. Aside from my first Toller mentioned above (whom we returned to the shelter and they had him PTS), I've never had an aggressive dog, so I'm not sure what I would do. I've dealth with stupid puppy behaviour like resource guarding and an occassional hissy fit which sometimes included growling and such, but it didn't last, was easy to work with, and was not really what I'd consider aggression to be. It's hard to say without actually seeing the interaction between Lilith and your family, and without seeing what's going on in her day to day life that could be causing this. I definitely agree with your trainer coming to see Lilith in your environment and seeing if you can figure out the cause and how to solve it. And I know it would be heartbreaking, but sometimes returning a dog to it's breeder is the right thing to do, as hard as it is. I know, I've been there, done that, and hope to never, ever need to go there again. I believe other options should be exhausted in the way of management and training first, but if after trying it doesn't work, returning Lilith might be the best option. It would be hard to have a dog who you could not trust around your children. I'm almost wondering if maybe Lilith is stressed out from having too much to do? I know you tether her to you a lot (which is a method I believe in for training purposes), but how much time does she get just to run around and be a puppy? How much time does she spend training each day? A lot of dogs like being kept busy, but some dogs (and especially puppies) can find it to be too much. Dogs take frustration and/or stress out in different ways. I hope that after experiencing this, you won't give up on the breed. What you're going through is far from normal or common in Tollers, and I am so sorry you're having to go through this. It upsets me to hear of anybody having aggression issues with their Toller, as it just is not how they're supposed to be. They're supposed to be superb family dogs for those who have done their research and know what they're getting. They're fun-loving, happy, playful dogs whom, while are definitely reserved around strangers, are generally very outgoing and enthusiastic with their family and friends. I really hope you're able to work this out. (((hugs)))

Do not blame yourself for this. People can do all the research in the world, put all their time and energy into something, think they're doing everything right and "by the book", and things can still go sideways. Things do not always work out as anticipated unfortunately, no matter how hard you try to do everything just right. From talking to you over these past few months, and getting to know you a little, I do not feel you made a mistake in your choice of breed. Do not let people tell you that you did. Do not let people make you feel guilty, or make you feel worthless and tell you that a Toller is too much dog for you, because a Toller is not too much dog for you. It sounds like you might not have gotten the right temperamented puppy for you unfortunately (which can happen to anybody), but hopefully you and Lilith will get through this together, and if not, the right dog for you is out there. I know it is. You're a wonderful, competent person and from what you have told me about Lilith and how you've been raising her, I believe you are a great dog owner. :-)

I'm coming into this late, but wanted to add my two cents.  I hope I don't come off hard nosed, but we shall see!

No dog in my household will EVER growl at me more than once. I make it understood that it is just not done.  The same goes for anyone in my "pack" ( human, canine, feline or Guinea pig). I am "head bitch" in my household. Every animal gets along with each other and us because s/he knows his/her place in the pack. My dogs NEVER fight.  My cats?  They have an occasional scuffle that is broken up with a water bottle.

It sounds like Lilith thinks she needs to be the Alpha bitch in the household. She corrected your son because she honestly believes he is lower in the pack than she is.  In her mind, this isn't a bad thing; she is just correcting a "puppy". She is also a teenager and teens of ANY species are obnoxious at times! LOL

You need to make it known in no uncertain terms that you are the pack leader in this household.  There will be NO "moving up in the ranks" by Lilith.YOU will correct your son, NOT her.

Also, she doesn't belong on your bed right now or the couch, chairs or ANY furniture.  Whenever you want her to move, don't ask her, TELL her. She MUST move over or out of your way since you are the Alpha in your household.

As for food, you always control when and how much she gets. I am wondering if you are feeding too "hot" a mixture. Working dogs are often fed a food that is higher in protein to give the the extra  calories for a long work day of hunting, herding, etc.  When the average family pet (somewhat under exercised or challenged) gets fed this, they tend to get pretty ansty and some will get snappy.  Maybe a food change is in order.

Lilith has the potential to be one of two things: a wonderful companion and working dog or a problem for you. I hope you are able to manage her and that she will be an awesome adult.

Also, there is NO shame in returning a dog that is NOT right or too much for you. It may well be in everyone's best interest, including Lilith's. Keep us posted.

 If you already answered this, I missed it. Is Lilith crate trained?

Regarding the growling during petting... does this happen everytime? I mean, if you pet her during a training or play session, does she growl then? Or is it only during 'down' time?

I've always said, I have girls because I like attitude and being flicked off. If she's always tethered to you, when is her down/off time? Tina is my most loving, cuddliest girl. Kali is always up for petting. Bree's a snuggler. But when they're tired, leave 'em the hell alone, they value their 'quiet' time. 

Is Lilith getting enough 'quiet' time?

Jackson doesn't have an off switch and has to be crated to give him down time. Otherwise, I have an over the top nipper, jumper, crazed pup on my hands...

orangedog

I'm almost wondering if maybe Lilith is stressed out from having too much to do? I know you tether her to you a lot (which is a method I believe in for training purposes), but how much time does she get just to run around and be a puppy? How much time does she spend training each day? A lot of dogs like being kept busy, but some dogs (and especially puppies) can find it to be too much. Dogs take frustration and/or stress out in different ways.

I think this is a very good point - Susan points to it too regarding Jackson.  Sometimes very drivey dogs (Bugsy still has a very limited off button) will just keep working and going and going and going - BUT they do get overtired and nippy and difficult.  Bugsy definitely got 'strung out' when he was younger.

We definitely had to crate Bugsy for 'off' time well past 18 mos old.  He's now over 5 and on our recent trip to FL we saw him for the first time consider toddling off to bed by his own volition

You are getting some great advice from some very talented folks.  Although my expertise is in a different breed I have been in it for over 30 years.  First let me say to you you have obviously been a sincere and dedicated owner.  You mention the methods of training you are using and they are both solid and productive with about 98% of dogs.  There will always be that 2% who are wired differently and NO one can really figure out why.  I am certain that a breeder who respects her breed enough to breed sparingly and stay in touch with owners would never place a spooky puppy with a family with a small child. So from that observation and the remarks you made about how responsive she was early on in your relationship and her accomplishments in training and socialization it would seem she has been dealt with in a consistant manner according to her needs. ALL VERY IMPORTANT. SO NOW YOU NEED TO STOP BEATING YOURSELF UP . If you have not done something that you omitted sharing with the group then it is really not about you.

One of the reasons purebred dogs and mutts are so very different is the purebreds are hard wired to specific genetic  expectations.  They may not all preform as well as hoped but you can have strong expectations of behavior, needs and results from specific training methods.  Beloved mutts may or may not have that same kind of genetic wiring, it may be there ,it may be diluted or non exsistant.  A herding dog NEEDS to herd.  They feel strongest and most confident when they are working.   Our Ridgebacks are a hunting breed for large and often violent game.  While I can say with great confidence there are no Lions or Wild Boar in our neighborhood I must still keep in mind that I have a breed of dog who reacts quickly and with both great intelligence and a take no prisoners attitude. If I am not aware of our surroundings and potential danger they ALWAYS are.  I could not penalize our then 8 year old Kota for taking on and badly injuring an aggressive Pit who had climbed into our yard ( 6 foot wooden fence)  because we had girls in season.  Had Kota not intervened the 8 month old puppy would have been killed.  Kota who up until that point been wonderful with everyone is now a dog who can no longer be allowed lose around intact males.

I truly feel the two biggest problems with a dog showing  aggression are Lack of confidence and /or fear.   People often forget or underestimate  when selecting a breed ...the amount of work and exercise they need.   Where  a hound like mine needs a specific amount of exercise followed by working for treats, a breed like yours may require something more?   Perhaps more structure in your work outs or  the work geared specfically to  Tollers?  My hound would not be amused if I asked them to play water games.   They would sulk and show me just how little they thought of the idea. They are wonderful swimmers, enjoy the snow but only on their terms.   Of course Ridgebacks are also some of the worst Frisbee or Fetch playing dogs. You throw it once they go get it, the second time they get it much slower while throwing you a look, the third time they tend to wander away since you are apparently not bright enough to hold on to the item you expect them to continue returning to you!   While the Toller breed is not intended to be aggressive or overly shy if the dog is feeling confused by the work it gets or lack of work it needs it can become a dog lacking in confidence. 

Many people have a different understanding of the whole alpha concept.  Some think it means you physically overwhelm the dog so it will follow you out of fear.  That is the worst theory  in old school training.  It is far better to be the alpha by leading . Keeping a dog engaged mentally and making it want you to be pleased.   When you have multiple breeds in a home that can add to the confusion.  My 6 Ridgebacks would sooner swallow their tongue than make a mouth correction with our 5 grandkids and their friends.  It is simply not allowed.   We work the kids and dogs together from birth on. Making sure the dogs see the children as someone with authority, someone to be listened to and obeyed.  It takes a lot of focus to accomplish this and was learned over the 30+ years in our breed. From our smallest 35 pound 5 year old to our 60+ pound 11 year old  everyone works with the dogs. They have fun chores and clean up chores. They are taught from the get go they are not allowed to tease or worry any dog.  And they can read a dog's body language better than most vet techs.  I have never had a dog bite but I am always supervising and watching body language.  This is not knocking you,  rather it is my view of how I would  handle the kiss from your son to the dog. IF I understood it correctly everyone was on the floor, the dog raised her face to kiss you but your son went down to her to give his kiss?   If that is what hapened then your dog voluntarily made contact with you either because she wated it or because you requested it.  However your son moved OVER her when she was in a submissive position laying down.  The fact that she growled right before the rough bump that left a puppy type correction. Was her way of telling him he was not to overwhelm her space, He was NOT to attempt a dominate body language.  Had she been mean or as we call it "ugly" she would have broken skin.   What I would do if you plan on keeping her, is to create a specific training program done every day between your son and your girl.   Walking, sitting on command, downing  all followed by His praise and a small treat or reward ( clicker or squeaky)  Build his confidence while teaching him to read her body language and build hers while working on routine commands that get positive reinforcement for working.  The training sessions should be no longer than 10 minutes at a time and always treated as a huge fun family game.  I would , with a trainer's help, teach her she is not allowed to define her personal space.  Rather she needs to learn to trust you will keep her safe.  When your son wants to kiss the dog ( any dog) make sure the dog is sitting or standing and their body language welcomes the contact  which should be followed by a treat.   If your son is too frightened to want to reconnect by exchanges of kisses then teach her to shake paw or another action that your son can understand is her way of telling him she loves him. Best of Luck and please keep all of us posted!! You sound like a wonderful Dog and Two Legger Mom.

I've typed three times and it is having trouble posting-but I do have some experience with difficult dogs so PM me when you are feeling better if you want to chat. 

I think the best thing now is NILIF by the whole family.  It doesn't have to be fancy-I just made her sit for everything.  And, even to this day I do not let her demand stuff of me.  For example, if she had brought me a toy wanting to play, she would of had to do something I wanted her to do and wait for me patiently to begin the game.  I know its cute and you are probably tempted to encourage it but its pushy and not a good behavior. 

You could also teach her something like "gentle" so when she is taking things or coming close to your face she knows she cannot be too rough.  "Gentle" is one of my favorite words that I taught her because I can use it to make her realize she needs to calm down or to help her realize that something isn't going to hurt her, "it's gentle". 

If she is growling at you and you need her off furniture and she won't get off just with your verbal command-leash her and use that to get her off-you don't want to grab her in that state of mind. 

If shes not on furniture and shes growling-use a command to get her to do something else to distract her focus from whatever train of thought she was on that made her think she needed to growl.  I don't know if its right or wrong but I almost never bothered to discipline the actual growling-at first I was afraid she'd get more aggressive and then later I learned that discouraging a growl might not be a good idea.  There is some school of thought that says it might just lead to a bite quicker.  But, I found it better to just get her past it and move on.  The more she didn't growl, the more she didn't growl if that makes sense-its almost like a habit. 

Those were just some random thoughts to things I read in your posts.

Lori

Kindredspirits

Thank you everyone so much for the advice and support. I really hope we can figure this out. She really is a sweet dog when she wants to be. This morning she was wagging her tail and giving me kisses on my hand. So weird. Like a switch just goes off sometimes.

It really doesn't match a lot of the symptoms (in that she's showed bite inhibition) but, the comment about a "switch goes off".... that made me think of Rage Syndrome. It's very, very rare.  Basically it's a type of seizure.  Her eyes would be glazed-looking and suddenly she'll snap in and out of it and would not act like she remembered any problem, just bam, everything is fine again.

If nothing else.... it maybe something else to look into.  Definitely not easy to diagnose and you cannot do it alone, definitely not something you want it to be... but, if it is, you definitely want to know.  LINK  ETA: LINK 2  This link talks about it being more prevalent in red Cockers, that article is very interesting.  I know you are, but talk to a Vet, Behaviorist and your Breeder before reaching any conclusion! (Not that you would, but wanted to say it again!)

Sorry about the garbled response yesterday, I just took my dose of codeine and it always makes me feel out of it for the first 30-45min. Anywho I haven't taken any yet, so I'm going to respond to you all before I can't :)

GeogeAnne- Thats what I call treats :) I use kibble morning and night with her meals and we do tricks and obedience. I use freeze dried liver/ hotdogs/ cheddar for classes and club, because she gets too distracted to listen something.

Shamrockmommy- There were no visible warnings, just growl-bite. And I do believe she was correcting him. I think like others have said to me, she showed alot of control. Still unacceptable, but I'm glad she didn't hurt my son. Most of the time when Lilith growls I put her straight in her crate. When she growls at me which is sometimes and ONLY when I'm petting her, never anything else, I just keep petting her till she stops. Its never a full out growl, like a grumbly growl. I am going to keep doing all that we were doing before, although modified now to be safer. I do not want to give up on Lilith.

Johnny & Tessy- Thank you :)

AgileGSD- I understand what you are saying. Its something I've already considered. I've decided once we've tried everything and if we still can't get her comfortable around my son, they I will return her to the breeder. Lilith only generally avoids my son, no other child. She LOVES Aistlinn who is 2yrs younger than Nevyn. :)

Cait- Thank you Cait, I respect your opinion, but I am not going to return her to the breeder without trying everything I can first :) Lilith does have many many mental and physical exercise outlets, so I don't think thats the problem. When I was researching Tollers, I knew full well how much work they needed in that way and in socializing :) Lilith won't be a PSD, thats something I gave up after many disappointments with my province, shes just my personal therapy dog and in many ways she has helped me tremendously.

Jewilee- I will ask Rebecca if she knows any nearby behaviorists. Shes been so incredibly helpful so far, so I know she'll be able to help me find one and in the meantime help me help Lilith. After losing Rickards and feeling the pain I still feel today, that is why partially why I'm not rushing to give Lilith back to the breeder. I feel guilty everyday about him, like I should have tried even harder. I don't want any regrets with Lilith, I have to give this my all and then some, because I love her very very much. But like I said, after I've tried, and if I wasn't able to get her better, then I will return her to the breeder without any regrets :)

Paige- I saw Devan already answered you, but shes right, I researched Tollers on my own first and settled on a breeder. Then found there were more questions I had (Tollers seem to have so much conflicting info) that she was able to help me with. My breeder is a very good breeder like Devon said, shes been incredibly helpful so far. But this to her is new, shes never heard of a Toller with these issues before. Regardless she is still being very supportive :) -forgot to add she is talking with her mentor about this as well.

nfowler- I don't know. For me, I needed help and this was were I came to very soon after the bite happened. I have been ashamed by the growling and the fact my son and her don't for the most part want to be around eachother. But I knew after the bite I needed immediate help and advice. I trust everyone on her and I do respect all the opinions and advice I have been given. I won't trust Lilith with Nevyn again, but I honestly do trust her with my daughter. Not that I won't be careful or ever put either in an uncomfortable spot. But you'd have to see the two together to understand. :)

Devan- Okay, you made me cry, thank you so much for your reply. I do agree that Nevyn makes her nervous, probably because hes scared of her. He doesn't like rambuncous puppies and for the first week and a half to two weeks Lilith was home hse mouthed alot until we got a handle on the chew toys and training. Its the same reason he is afriad of my sisters havanese mix puppy, she mouthed him, now he won't go near her. When Lilith growls at me (and only me) most of the time I do just keep petting her. I think she does try to push Nevyn around though. I agree with you and everyone else, once I've tried everything, if it doesn't work, I will return her to her breeder. I'm honestly hoping we can get this right though, Lilith can be such a great dog and so sweet and she has helped me through so much and enabled me to do things and go places I never thought I could before. I'm not sure if its because she has too much to do and maybe thats adding stress. I've never thought about that. She is tethered to me or my husband, but she does get freetime. We do I'd say, 15-20min playimes periodically throughout the day. We play fetch, which she finally loves and at night when the kids are in bed she isn't tethered at all, she also isn't tethered when my mother in law takes the kids out to the farm for usually 4-5 day,  about every month and a half. And she does get to be a goof two days of the week at the dog park, which she loves. Maybe classes, dog park, dog club, which was adding up to 4 days a week was too much. Our training sessions are about 10min at a time with her two meals a day, never longer. And when we go for walks lately I have been trying to work on her heeling. But not all the time. I know Liliths behavior is not the norm with a Toller, I still love the breed very much and will not give up on them :) Thank you Devan for that last part, I won't let it get to me. I really did, as you know, do my research, I would not have made such a grave error this time, I mean heck, people at first were trying to get me a border collie! I said they are cute, but heck no! I was VERY careful with this decision and what I could and could not handle in a dog. I love Tollers, always will now regardless of Liliths issues. Maybe Lilith isn't a perfect temperment match, I understand that. I just want to try longer with her. My husband said yesterday he wants to give it at least 6-8 months to see if its a bratty teen stage, he thinks she will be great as an adult if we follow our training and maintenace. We know behaviors don't change over night either, but we have faith and a game plan, we are very hopeful.

Lani- I don't think its the rage thing, I've heard about that and it sounds very violent. What I meant by switch was she seems great and fine and tries to play with the kids and Skyline and is fine with me petting her. But sometimes its like shes all the sudden annoyed or something and starts getting growly. Shes REALLY bad when she gets her zoomies on. I think she also might have poor impulse control. Ive been reading some more and it sounds liek that. I found a book called 'Control Unleashed- Creating a Focused and Confident Dog' By Leslie Mcdevitt. So I'm going to order that one tomorrow too with the Click to Calm book. But thank you so much for putting that possiblity out there and thank you for the links :)

I will let you all know about our progress and how things go wotht he blood work, trainer and I will have to check that page again where the Calgary behaviorist was, because I don't recall seeing a phone number. And I will ask Rebecca and my Vet if they know any behavorists. Thank you so much everyone :)