I need help-Lilith bit my son in the face

Thank you everyone for trying to help :)

Cita- Thank you :) I will keep you all posted. I'm just trying to stay calm with Lilith. If I get really mad about it I won't be able to think clearly, I love her dearly and want to help her get over this if she can.

Krissim Klaw- Thats pretty close to what my trainer said to when it comes to my son. But that wouldn't explain why Lilith has been growling at me. Shes never tried to bite me. But with handling or petting she sometimes starts to growl and grumble at me. I'm not afraid of Lilith at all, but it bothers me she does that. I'm not sure what I can do with Nevyn and Lilith for them to do together, any suggestions? This morning him and Aistlinn fed Lilith a few kibbles. He got a bit scared when he head came near his hand so a couple times he just dropped them on the floor, but then he gave her a few with his hand flat. He did surprisingly well.

nfowler- Thank you for the support :) I'm re-evaluting how I manage things because of this. I am taking everything thats been suggested and using it. No more hugging or kissing her. I just want her to allow petting and be more tolerant.

stardancinminpin- I haven't thoroughly inspected her mouth, but I don't see any baby teeth or anything out of the norm. But I will mention it tomorrow when she goes in for her blood work.

amstaffy- Thank you, I thought I was doing everything right from the start behavior wise and with all the training. My kids know to respect dogs and know the rules. They might be young but they know. I'm going to rule out health issues. But I know its not her bloodlines. I've spoken to her breeder this morning, she is upset and completely baffled. They do not have aggressive dogs and her mentor has been breeding Toller for 40yrs in Yarmouth, NS and thats where her dogs came from. Shes spoken to him many many times over the years and hes always been honest about his dogs with her she said. Shes still going to call him and tell him about what happened and see if he has any insight or advice for me.

Lies- Thank you for sharing your experiences, Lilith never gave a clear warning either. I always thought like most, there would have been. But i guess like you mentioned, not all dogs do. I am prepared for the thyroid to come back normal, I just want to eliminate it just incase. Other than my son helping hand feed her a few kibbles this morning, I've had Lilith tethered to me and Nev has just stayed away. The thing is, Tollers are supposed to be incredibly great with kids. This is from the Canadian Kennel Club:

"Loving and playful to his family, he can be reserved with strangers without being aggressive or overly shy. Aggression is not to be tolerated."

Anything you search online or in books will say the same thing. And its just weird, because my son being fearful does not explain Lilith growling at me occasionally. I just can't figure it out. I don't know what to do. Am I supposed to back off when she growls and I'm petting her? Or what do I do when she growls at Nev or Skyline? I'm at a loss here. Last night Lilith also wouldn't come to me. She was acting afraid of me and and if I said something she would just turn her head away. I wonder if she could tell I was still upset about what happened. If I can't fix Lilith's behavior after working with a trainer or behaviorist if I can find one, rule out medical issues or heck, even try meds if I have to, then I will have no choice than to return her to the breeder. I am hopeful though. I'm praying it will pass and we can get through this.

 Tashakota- He head wasn't ont he ground, but it wasn't in a sphinx position, she was laying, but not straight, with her head up. Not sure how to explain that. I was by Liliths mid section sitting on one side and Nevyn was by her back on the other side. I just wish if she felt uncomfortable she would have shown it more. She seemed fine with the petting. I'll just do as you all say and not let them near eachother right now. And like I said, no more hugging/ kissing her.

Thank you everyone so much for the advice and support. I really hope we can figure this out. She really is a sweet dog when she wants to be. This morning she was wagging her tail and giving me kisses on my hand. So weird. Like a switch just goes off sometimes.

I do have a few more questions though,

How do I stop her from biting my hand so hard with treats? (this is one of the new behaviors)

What do I do when she growls?

What can I do to work on her and my sons relationship?

What kind of management things can I do while we are waiting to see my trainer?

Kindredspirits

How do I stop her from biting my hand so hard with treats? (this is one of the new behaviors

this one I can perhaps give a suggestion on. Many may not like this method but "meh"...

Do not give treats aside from those that are squishy enough to be stuck with a fork. MOST dogs do not favor or delight in the feel of metal on the teeth. Offer treats impaled on a fork not too far from your hand...allow her to bite down as hard as she wants and say "GENTLE" or "EASY" or whatever you want right as her teeth contact the metal. Timing will be crucial,...chances are she will NOT like that metal clanking against her teefs and will gentle up right away.

NO TREAT OTHER THAN WITH THIS METHOD. She must feel the metal every time and once you notice her being easy with it scoot the treats onto the very tip of the fork and move your hand very close as well. Get her thinking that your hand and the fork are one and the same. Get a consistent response of gentle taking off the fork for even weeks before you try to do it without. If she gets hard again, go back to the fork.

I would also ask if a dog that is growling and such DESERVES treats for no reason...she better be earning them and in a big way! Lots of down's and sits, many times a day. Leave a lead on her so that if necessary you can work with her or remove her from areas safely.

I am not sure on the other items on your list, since honestly a dog that was consistently growly with me would not be in my house very long.

Thanks Gina, I am going to try that method, maybe with some hotdogs. I never give Liltih anything without working her butt off for it. I've been trying to teach her heel and we are supposed to lure and then every few step treat, but Lilith has started biting so hard. And same with hand feeding her her food. I've had to hold my hand flat to avoid being bitten which does puncture. Its hard Gina, but I'm with you on the growling thing. I just want to make sure I try everything first. This sounds stupid, but it wasn't supposed to happen, I'm kinda of in denial. I did my research like crazy, picked a good breeder, I socialize her, I have passed two classes with her, do rally-o, agility, buy all the interactive toys to keep her busy, NILIF.... And Tollers are supposed to be incredible dogs. I just don't know what went wrong.

Kindredspirits

I just don't know what went wrong.

I may be in the minority here, but I don't think anything went wrong. She's just at that age where she's going to push the limits.

For the hand biting, I'd ask myself if she's too hungry. For a while, I had to feed Jackson in a bowl some of his food before he could think straight being hand fed. He was just too hungry and pushy about wanting his food.

I, personally, would crate her or ignore her when she growls. If she's growling during petting, she may just not want to be pet. Is she crate trained?

I wouldn't do anything about her and your son's relationship at the moment. If he's too fearful, you're better off waiting until he calms down around her. So teaching her to avoid him would be a good priority.

3girls

For the hand biting, I'd ask myself if she's too hungry. For a while, I had to feed Jackson in a bowl some of his food before he could think straight being hand fed. He was just too hungry and pushy about wanting his food.

The only reason I would not agree is because she showed A TON of bite inhibition on the kiddos wee face. She knows HOW NOT to bite hard...IMO this is more of a willful thing, esp coupled with the growling and general food possessiveness. Give it to me..."NOW",

THO,,,It might happen because a dog is used to being baited so much it ends up really being teasing...Vanessa you might consider if that applies, not sure it does.

3girls- Its hard to tell if it would be because shes too hungry. Lilith has an extreme food obsession, shes always looking for food and as some of you know swallowed a sock and well, a few more socks and now table surfs like crazy when I try to giver her free time. She always wants food. I don't feed her table scraps either. I feed Wellness super5 mix, two cups a day, recently divided into two feeding times, we were doing three.

Gina- Not sure what you mean by being baited? Like the kids teasing her with food? Because they aren't allowed to do any sort of teasing at all not to eachother and not to the dogs. The only time either kid gives food to the dogs is during training or hand feeding and I'm always there. I was actually wondering if there was an alternative to using treats with clicker training because she is so obsessed with it.

Kindredspirits

What do I do when she growls?

Is she growling only when you are handling her?  Any particular part of her body that she was objecting to being touched? 

Kindredspirits

What can I do to work on her and my sons relationship?

Nothing for the time being.  Keep them separated but not in a way that imparts fear to your son or tension/stress to Lilith.  It's not worth risking another bite, IMO, while you find out if this is something that you can correct.

Kindredspirits

What kind of management things can I do while we are waiting to see my trainer?

NILIf all day, every day.  No sweet talking her and no long extended petting sessions.  I don't mean you should become mean and nasty to her.  Just matter of fact tone of voice in all things.  I don't think teaching her to avoid your son is wise.  If she already has issues with him, whether it's fear or whatever, this may backfire and  increase those feelings.  I don't think your kids need to be interacting with her at all but don't make it seem like it's her decision. 

Kindredspirits

Gina- Not sure what you mean by being baited? Like the kids teasing her with food? Because they aren't allowed to do any sort of teasing at all not to eachother and not to the dogs. The only time either kid gives food to the dogs is during training or hand feeding and I'm always there. I was actually wondering if there was an alternative to using treats with clicker training because she is so obsessed with it.

No I meant more as in what do trainers call it? luring? something like that...moving the food around to manipulate the dog into a sit or a down or forward or backwards. Us show folks call it "baiting" meaning you offer the food to affect an interested expression and get a free stack...etc. Some dogs are fine with that while others will see it as frustrating and GRAB like he** LOL!

JackieG

Is she growling only when you are handling her?  Any particular part of her body that she was objecting to being touched?

Yes. Doesn't really seem to matter where I'm petting her. Its like shes impatient with me or something.

JackieG

Nothing for the time being.  Keep them separated but not in a way that imparts fear to your son or tension/stress to Lilith.  It's not worth risking another bite, IMO, while you find out if this is something that you can correct.

Okay I can do that.

JackieG

NILIf all day, every day.  No sweet talking her and no long extended petting sessions.  I don't mean you should become mean and nasty to her.  Just matter of fact tone of voice in all things.  I don't think teaching her to avoid your son is wise.  If she already has issues with him, whether it's fear or whatever, this may backfire and  increase those feelings.  I don't think your kids need to be interacting with her at all but don't make it seem like it's her decision. 

rwbeagles

No I meant more as in what do trainers call it? luring? something like that...moving the food around to manipulate the dog into a sit or a down or forward or backwards. Us show folks call it "baiting" meaning you offer the food to affect an interested expression and get a free stack...etc. Some dogs are fine with that while others will see it as frustrating and GRAB like he** LOL!

 

Ah okay lol. Yes we move the food initially to get the behavior, then we get rid of lures. And yes that about sounds right with Lilith. But then again even without lures, she still chomps.  I would really like try no treats consistently with her, maybe try a toy or something instead as a reward. But then again, when I have tried just praise she gives me this look like "wth wheres my treat?!"

Jewlieee

http://dacvb.org/directory/

Thanks for the link. I took a look and the only person in Alberta is Calgary and thats about an 8.5-9hrs drive from me. Not really something I could do anytime soon *sigh*

JackieG

NILIf all day, every day.  No sweet talking her and no long extended petting sessions.  I don't mean you should become mean and nasty to her.  Just matter of fact tone of voice in all things.  I don't think teaching her to avoid your son is wise.  If she already has issues with him, whether it's fear or whatever, this may backfire and  increase those feelings.  I don't think your kids need to be interacting with her at all but don't make it seem like it's her decision. 

 (My bold) I agree with this.  Also, definitely agree with NILF, NILF and then NILF is some more. 

You mentioned writing the breeder... did she have any advice? 

Kindredspirits

 I was actually wondering if there was an alternative to using treats with clicker training because she is so obsessed with it.

I am going to interject here.  I do all of my dogs training with their kibble.  I don't use any treats at all for training unless we are at the training building or at a trial.  It really builds up the drive when they don't get the treats all the time at home.  I usually do two training sessions a day, once for each meal.  My dogs do just fine with it and will work very well for their meals. 

Just seeing this now. 

It seems to me Lillith does not see Nevin as higher up in the pack order, or even.  He is below.  I am betting there were minute warnings given by her- stiffening, stare, pursing of lips.  That can happen in split seconds and then WHAM!  Did she break skin?  It sounds like it was a "discipline" bite.

Same thing happened with Gobie, years ago when my son was 6 months old.  GObie was in Dad's lap, Noah was crawling toward Dad, I said to DH "move Gobie NOW!" just as Gobie gave a hard stare, pursed his lips and WHAM! Right to Noah's face.  He didn't break the skin but right then and there he was put on leash and put in a 30 min. down/stay.

So anyway, Echo did this once, but to Lexi the bichon. I don't tolerate any dog/human, dog/dog aggression here.  It was over a toy, and  Echo lit into Lexi like a madwoman  That resulted in screaming Lexi and fiercly growlilng/barking carrying on and neck biting Echo. 

My immediate response (right or wrong, heat of the moment) was to grab Echo by the scruff of her neck and put her in a down/stay.   There have been zero dog fights since then. 

All of this is anecdotal.  Lillith sounds like a very self-confident, dominant personality that will need continued NILIF,  long downs, extended training, and plenty of physical exercise.  The table surfing and other thigns you described sound pretty typical puppy/adolescent behavior, which will pass... so we say about Echo anyway ;)  LOL

It is very understandaable to become rattled when your kid is bitten by your dog. HTH

I've no advise but just wanted to say that you're handling this perfectly!  I have confidence you'll get things righted.

HUGS

  I think you have gotten some good advice. What I'm going to say may not be popular but is another angle to consider.

 Is it possible that this puppy is just not a good match temperament wise for you and your family? People don't want to think about "giving up" on a dog but sometimes, in another setting the dog will be perfectly fine. If that is the case isn't it better for the dog and the family to rehome the dog to a more fitting home? I got my oldest Belgian after she was returned to her breeder for "temperament problems" at 6 months. They reported that she was fearful, reactive and had bitten one of their children. Once settled in at the breeder's house though, she was fine and fit in well here. She is a really solid dog temperament wise and in no way fearful. Her previous owners showed dogs and had other Belgians (and got Belgians after her). It wasn't that they were a bad home, they just weren't the right home for this dog.

 If I'm understanding this right, Lilith generally avoids your children? Does she enjoy playing with them or ever seek out their attention? There is a possibility that her behavioral issues are related to the stress of having to interact with something daily which makes her uncomfortable - young children. Aggression and risk of a bite escalates as stress escalates. Lilith is generally stressed by living with the kids then further stressed by one invading her space and further stressed by the direct physical face-to-face contact (threatening in dog language). This article describes what leads to a bite very well: http://blogs.dogster.com/dog-training/how-are-dog-bites-like-tetris/2010/11/

  I am not saying you should rehome Lilith but I am suggesting you consider it as an option if it is what would be in everyone's best interest. She is a well bred puppy with what sounds like a dedicated breeder. If she would do better in a different environment, it would be far better to return her or rehome her with her breeder's help now than waiting until she's an adult and the problem has gotten much worse. It isn't always an easy thing to think about but sometimes it really is the right choice.