I need help-Lilith bit my son in the face

I am sad.

Why? Because most everyone involved have already acknowledged that emotions went over the line.

We had already started editing. The heat was already gone. We mended fences briefly torn down.

I am stunned that you failed to see and acknowledge the self moderation.

I am no longer responsible for any quoted parts of my original posts. If you quoted me, your on your own.

Dawn

Oh well, I'm going Omewhere else. Bye.

spiritdogs

I usually recommend that my clients not allow children to be on the floor at eye level with the dog, or the dog up on furniture at eye level with the kids.  Also, children should not kiss or hug dogs.  Frankly, we like it, but most of the time dogs really don't.  This is how face bites happen. Here's an interesting commentary by Dr. Yin on a book that has some of us trainers scratching our heads and hoping it's not on anyone's Christmas list for next year:

( http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/smooch-your-pooch-a-cute-childrens-book-with-unsafe-suggestions )

I really think that you need to consult a behaviorist for a really impartial evaluation of this dog's suitability for a home with children, and for a protocol to follow in the event that the eval goes well.

 Okay I will make sure the kids are not at eye level with her and no kissing or hugging Lilith. I just never thought it would be an issue. Lesson learned. I am hoping Jewlee can help me find a behaviorist, I tried my own searching and could not find one at all. Until then I'm going to try to work with my trainer and see if that helps. I'm also eager to hear what Lilith breeder says tomorrow morning. I will find a way to get a handle on this. Shes almost six months old, hopefully thats young enough that she can change.

 You're right, you've started the self-moderation. I was doing this from my phone and came in having read it on my phone (and email from several complaints) without checking all the posts. I apologize for that

 You are welcome to bring any complaints to my inbox.  I'm a reasonable person, I will admit when I'm wrong, but this is the wrong place for this.  So, let's clean up our posts -- move forward and allow this thread to help a member in need.

Sera_J

 You're right, you've started the self-moderation. I was doing this from my phone and came in having read it on my phone (and email from several complaints) without checking all the posts. I apologize for that

 You are welcome to bring any complaints to my inbox.  I'm a reasonable person, I will admit when I'm wrong, but this is the wrong place for this.  So, let's clean up our posts -- move forward and allow this thread to help a member in need.

So... you decided to moderate knowing that your phone isn't entirely up-to-date on posts and that we were already being watched by another moderator?

Vanessa I think you're being really impressively open-minded considering the emotionality of the situation, and I really hope some of the suggestions help. Please do keep us posted. I'll be thinking about you guys. I know how upsetting it can be when a dog bites, and for the bite to be to your kid... again, my thoughts are with you.

Cita

Vanessa I think you're being really impressively open-minded considering the emotionality of the situation, and I really hope some of the suggestions help. Please do keep us posted. I'll be thinking about you guys. I know how upsetting it can be when a dog bites, and for the bite to be to your kid... again, my thoughts are with you.

Excellent point and sentiment, I agree 100%.... my thoughts are with you. There have been awesome suggestions, I hope things work out for EVERYONE involved.

 I'm no dog expert, but the thing that stands out to me most is that your child was already uncomfortable and displaying fear around her.  Animals can read fear and insecurities very well and many have no problems taking advantage of it.  It is the difference between having a green rider hop on a horse and someone with experience.  They know immediately and many a horse that will ride beautiful for an experienced ride, will have no qualms about rubbing up against a fence to try and dislodge a newbie.  My guess is this fear has also put a barrier between your son and her.  The bond is not as strong.  In some ways I think your son needs just as much attention right now as your dog.  He needs his confidence brought up with pleasant experiences with her.  Take things slow, don't push him into anything, but create fun things he can do with her that don't break his comfort zone.

No helpful or unhelpful advice from me. Just wanted to lend some support. I have a two-time face biter and you know, a face bite changes everything. It really does. One bite went to my precious 4 year-old niece; the other was a nose scratch on an adult friend of mine. He hasn't bitten in 3+ years (yah!) but it's always there for me to think about and manage. Definiteily a VERY difficult thing to deal with (emotionally, especially).

Krissim Klaw

Animals can read fear and insecurities very well and many have no problems taking advantage of it.

I was going to say this myself.  Willow is the same way-if someone is "afraid" of her-she will escalate herself even further just because. 

huskymom

I'm with Dawn. We already fixed stuff Lani. Karen was already watching. You had no reason to come in here waving the Mod Badge like you're the Be All End All. FB Chat does not compete with this forum or with Dog.com. Get off your high horse. You're killing iDog.

Oh well, I'm going Omewhere else. Bye.

Am I really reading this? I received an e-mail from a members so I jumped in and read.

First I'm so sorry to hear that your dog has bitten your child, that is a behavior/issue no parent wants to have happen. As so many have already discussed it is an issue that should be taken serious on behavior, training and health. The Thyroid pannel as well as a full blood pannel might tell you something. The other issue if those come back normal is bloodlines/temperments of parents and of course home enviornment what is, is not permitted for dog and children.

Now to the disturbing issue in this thread, calling out a moderator in the behavior like this? Really? No one, members or moderators should be talked to like this. Has moderating changed so much that the natives are calling the shots now?

I've been away at a rustic cabin so I have no idea what happened with the chat or mod thing.  I am just writing from the perspective of someone who HAS a dog that does not tolerate little children.  First I think all your ideas are good ones (Click to Calm, doing the thyroid panel, etc).  I would be prepared for the thyroid to come back normal and for this to be something that needs to be managed and dealt with on an ongoing basis.  I agree with whoever said the dog showed bite inhibition but clearly meant to correct by making contact.  Like I said I have a dog that bonds strongly to one or two people and doesn't tolerate a lot of close physical contact from anyone else, especially kids that make her nervous.  To whoever mentioned that their should have been warning signs...I agree and disagree.  My particular dog doesn't give any of the warning signs that most people are looking for.  She doesn't bare teeth, hackle, growl EVER.  Really the only warning she gives is sort of pursing her lips together.  I always tell people that ask to pet, if her mouth is open you may let her check you out and pet but if her mouth is closed you need to give her space.  But many people are looking for a more "classic" sign of discomfort like growling, calming signals, etc.  Not all dogs do that.  My dog will try to get away first, then air snap if she feels cornered.  I think a snap such as you describe is some sort of correction from the dog, like "Get out of my face, please. Thanks."  The dog showed good bit inhibition by meaning to make contact but not breaking skin, but from what is described it does sound intentional.

For now I would keep the kidlet away from the dog until the thyroid panel comes back so you can start from there, something easily quantifiable.  If that comes back normal I'd work with a qualified behaviorist and have the kidlet give the dog a wide berth for a while.  I wish I could give really sound advice but I hesitate because I wasn't there and don't know much about the breed.  With my dog that doesn't tolerate kids, I just don't let her interact with them, but this is easy enough for me since I don't have any kids and my youngest cousin is now thirteen.

(((((Vanessa)))))

Liesje

I've been away at a rustic cabin so I have no idea what happened with the chat or mod thing.  I am just writing from the perspective of someone who HAS a dog that does not tolerate little children.  First I think all your ideas are good ones (Click to Calm, doing the thyroid panel, etc).  I would be prepared for the thyroid to come back normal and for this to be something that needs to be managed and dealt with on an ongoing basis.  I agree with whoever said the dog showed bite inhibition but clearly meant to correct by making contact.  Like I said I have a dog that bonds strongly to one or two people and doesn't tolerate a lot of close physical contact from anyone else, especially kids that make her nervous.  To whoever mentioned that their should have been warning signs...I agree and disagree.  My particular dog doesn't give any of the warning signs that most people are looking for.  She doesn't bare teeth, hackle, growl EVER.  Really the only warning she gives is sort of pursing her lips together.  I always tell people that ask to pet, if her mouth is open you may let her check you out and pet but if her mouth is closed you need to give her space.  But many people are looking for a more "classic" sign of discomfort like growling, calming signals, etc.  Not all dogs do that.  My dog will try to get away first, then air snap if she feels cornered.  I think a snap such as you describe is some sort of correction from the dog, like "Get out of my face, please. Thanks."  The dog showed good bit inhibition by meaning to make contact but not breaking skin, but from what is described it does sound intentional.

For now I would keep the kidlet away from the dog until the thyroid panel comes back so you can start from there, something easily quantifiable.  If that comes back normal I'd work with a qualified behaviorist and have the kidlet give the dog a wide berth for a while.  I wish I could give really sound advice but I hesitate because I wasn't there and don't know much about the breed.  With my dog that doesn't tolerate kids, I just don't let her interact with them, but this is easy enough for me since I don't have any kids and my youngest cousin is now thirteen.

I too have a dog that I know will bite if feeling cornered and I do not trust her around children. She did actually let a child hug her this past summer but I got the whale eyed look from her. And I saw the look because I was watching her very carefully to intervene if necessary. She's 10 years old now and 10 years ago I would have NEVER let a child hug her, let alone get near enough to pet her. 

I agree with Lies above, that you will probably have normal results from the thyroid.  It sounds like if she was laying on the floor (was head on the ground? or in sphinx position?) that she may have felt cornered if someone, especially a person that was nervous about her, came in very close to her face and if she was between you and your child, she may not have felt there was anywhere to go.

And I agree with the person that said dogs don't like to be hugged.  They don't, it's a restriction. Some may tolerate it but even my lap-attention-seeking-nudge-your-hand-to-pet-me dog does not like to be confined in a hug.