I need help-Lilith bit my son in the face

absolutely. You have to pick your battles when you have kids and dogs and such. Sometimes you just need to dog to be a dog and not a project just for a couple minutes so you can put someone down for a nap, make someone else lunch and maybe, even possibly SHOWER on a given day lmbo!

rwbeagles

People may have experience with dogs and with kids, but until you live with both, from babyhood right thru old age for the dog you really cannot see how DIFFICULT it sometimes is to do. Sometimes you NEED to accept that you cannot do everything suggested and focus on a few things that will emphasize safety and sanity, and still live your life and be a mother and SO on top of everything else.

Great advice!!!!

 shoot, I can't manage everything I need to and I don't have any kids. I can't imagine life with kids and dogs. It'd probably be a total disaster.

Jewlieee

 shoot, I can't manage everything I need to and I don't have any kids. I can't imagine life with kids and dogs. It'd probably be a total disaster.

I get too thinking for about 30 seconds of what my two existing dogs would be like with kids and the migrane starts...

 Yep, Lily would never have been adopted by me had I had kids. She was afraid of kids and told them so by barking and lunging / jumping at them. Freaked my sister-in-law right out! I had to sit down with my nieces and have several training sessions just to get lily over her fear. We first sat out by the picnic table and one niece would just randomly drop treats - never looking or interacting with Lily. Eventually, we worked up to hand feeding lily treats - still no eye contact, then eye contact, inviting interaction for treats and so on. Keep in mind that this was spread out over several visits. Kids were never constantly around like you have with Gina or the OP. It would be very difficult to control every situation like that.

Also, some kids Abbie loves and others stress her out. Like she loves loves loves my nieces, but my nephew - that took some time. She wanted nothing to do with a monster of a 2 yr old who threw balls around the house, yelled everything he said and was constantly on the move.  Eventually she got over that though and they are buds now. I'm hoping the same happens here. Honestly, it does sound like the boy really makes Lilith nervous.

Jewlieee

Also, some kids Abbie loves and others stress her out

consider that my view on kids too Julie! LMBO...and the one's that DON'T stress me out ain't always my own I live with haha!

Kindredspirits

I mean my husband does help alot when he comes home from work so I'm not completely on my own all the time, that takes a bit of the stress off.

Here too, BUT...the dogs, having as many as we do, what I do with them conformation wise is ALL me. My choices and such...so really him having to do much beyond the basics is ANOTHER sort of stress for me. A totally illogical one but I admit it's there. I worry he is hating having to do this or that or take x to teh vet and y to a handler and drive to these shows etc. He never EVER has given me any cause. It's all internal because I iz nutz.

Jewlieee

Yep, Lily would never have been adopted by me had I had kids. She was afraid of kids and told them so by barking and lunging / jumping at them. Freaked my sister-in-law right out! I had to sit down with my nieces and have several training sessions just to get lily over her fear. We first sat out by the picnic table and one niece would just randomly drop treats - never looking or interacting with Lily. Eventually, we worked up to hand feeding lily treats - still no eye contact, then eye contact, inviting interaction for treats and so on. Keep in mind that this was spread out over several visits. Kids were never constantly around like you have with Gina or the OP. It would be very difficult to control every situation like that.

Also, some kids Abbie loves and others stress her out. Like she loves loves loves my nieces, but my nephew - that took some time. She wanted nothing to do with a monster of a 2 yr old who threw balls around the house, yelled everything he said and was constantly on the move.  Eventually she got over that though and they are buds now. I'm hoping the same happens here. Honestly, it does sound like the boy really makes Lilith nervous.

Luci is a policewoman. i figure that she would have done exactly like lilith did. 

I was trying to say several things that i didn't get across very well.

The first was to say look if you need to re home it isn't the end of the world and is no reflection at all on the owner and that Lilths behaviours often come with really good things.

Please don't pathologise Lilith's behaviours. They are not wrong or right they just are dam dangerous around kids!! I need and try to draw out the pushiness and some of those undesirable behaviours. My dog luci groans at me to get moving. Sam will bounce of me. You wouldn't want or need that.

Don't wind yourself up with a whole lot of lists and routines. Just wind back a bit and relax and do what you can. This attitude often rubs of on the dogs. Management as others say is often a good idea. I don't wander around with Luci off lead. It is a pain because she is so active and while she has fantasatic recalls i can't be bothered.

 NILF is a good idea but it won change behaviours, it is just a very good scene setter. It is not absolute.

Controlling all resources is a good idea. You can imagine what two very pushy dogs bred for agility etc would do with two bones. You don't let it happen!

 All the dog things are based on experience.

I am male but very familiar with Children.

I'm glad you think Lilith is doing better. But i've just read you post and almost couln't believe my eyes when you said you let her kiss a 10 month olds face!! What were tou thinking? I'm sorry for being so blunt but what if she did the same thing. how would you have felt. She just  bit your son and now what 10 days or so later she's all better?? I'm sorry for coming across this way but nobody else seemed to notice that bit of your post. I think yor expecting too much from her too soon.

Jewlieee

 shoot, I can't manage everything I need to and I don't have any kids. I can't imagine life with kids and dogs. It'd probably be a total disaster.

Ditto!

Karla Welch

I'm glad you think Lilith is doing better. But i've just read you post and almost couln't believe my eyes when you said you let her kiss a 10 month olds face!! What were tou thinking? I'm sorry for being so blunt but what if she did the same thing. how would you have felt. She just  bit your son and now what 10 days or so later she's all better?? I'm sorry for coming across this way but nobody else seemed to notice that bit of your post. I think yor expecting too much from her too soon.

I respect your fears but there was nothing to be worried about. She has always acted amazing with ALL other kids, its just my son that shes uncomfortable with for some reason. On top of that I was watching her behavior, she acted like her normal happy go lucky playful self with my sister and her kids. You are entitled to think what you want, but I know my dog better than anyone. I am not expecting too much from her too soon at all, because there was nothing wrong with the interaction. Now had I been forcing an interaction between Lilith and my son, that would have warranted your comment, but I didn't, because I DONT want to push her or my son with this.  I'm sorry if I sound frustrated, I am a little, I don't want Lilith painted as an aggressive hates all kids/ people kind of dog. Because thats NOT what she is like. Yes she is pushy and had one minor lapse in judgment, that doesn't make her incompatible with kids or all people.

 ETA- Spoke with my trainer tonight, have a good starting place and a few training things to work with and she'll be coming to do a home visit after Liliths recovered. :)

I aggree with you, you know her better than anyone else. But you didn't expect it from her when she bit your own son in the face then what makes u sure enough that she won't do it to anyone else that doesn't meet her standards? I think its very risky. Did you have a trainer or behaviprist come in and evaluate? Maybe she is showing some signs that  regular dog owners might miss. How did she do with her surgery? How r your wisdom teeth holes? 

But I should have known better. I KNEW that they were uncomfortable with eachother, I was just hoping to get him more comfortable with her and well, that backfired. I take full blame for that. Trust me, she literally loves everyone, Tollers are supposed to be reserved, but shes a social butterfly. I did actually have my trainer see her yesterday at Dog Club. No one else showed up for club so we talked about what happened and she said Lilith is not aggressive at all, it sound like it was a correction, and she said Lilith acts like that to him because she knows she can push him around. She told me to never let Lilith on furniture and to interrupt her 'stare' when she focuses on things. And she gave me a good place to start with Lilith so I can teach Lilith that she doesn't define her own personal space and she can't guard it. She also told us to get Nevyn (when hes comfortable) to pet Lilith and every time he pets her click and treat over and over and over again so she can associate him with something positive. Obviously its not an over night fix, but sounds like a pretty good plan to me :) I do know alot of the obvious signs of aggression, none of that showed when she bit him. She seemed relaxed. And even since the bite I've been doing a ton of reading on other more subtle signs.

Lilith did great with the surgery, thank you for asking. I actually just called the vet an little bit ago to see how she handled it. I get to pick her up at 3pm today :) My wisdom teeth is not such a happy thing lol. The left side doesn't want to heal, I can't chew still, living on mashed potatoes right now lol. But hopefully another week I'll be able to eat something else!

Kindredspirits

But I should have known better. I KNEW that they were uncomfortable with eachother, I was just hoping to get him more comfortable with her and well, that backfired. I take full blame for that. Trust me, she literally loves everyone, Tollers are supposed to be reserved, but shes a social butterfly. I did actually have my trainer see her yesterday at Dog Club.

I personally regard breed standards as a guide not an absolute. I can show you very shy Labs, and GSDs that are extremely friendly and don't guard. I can show you poodles that would sooner roll in mud than get groomed :) i have seen many social butterfly tollers.

I am very conservative handling dogs around children because mistakes can cause permanent scars on kids, and cost the dog it's life. The most common cause of death for dogs in many countries are behavourial issues, many of which can be fixed.

My own Lab , one of the friendliest nicest dogs that you could meet, caused an unsupervised child to sit on it's bum abruptly causing the child to bite it's lip, and my dog to get issued with a dangerous dog notice. You do NOT want to repeat the court time over months that was required to get the notice removed and the b*****y slack parents to take responsibilty for their child's actions.

One bite means the dog has a lower threshold  than you want and the remedy which is along the lines that your trainer suggested is months not days. During this period you must not let the dog rehearse the behaviour again. You need to be lightening fast and very observant. Even then i would not trust and would manage the hell out of any meeting between the two.

Reading for this issue may not cut the mustard. It is a bit like tracking and many other doggy things, when you are shown and understand it seems really obvious , but in all honesty lots of very very small signs exist prior to the event. In hind sight if you looked really hard, Lillith probably gave you warning days before hand that she wasn't ok. Dogs do not bite out of the blue.

I know that you do not want to hear what i have said, but it is important that i do say these things ethically and morally. Anything less is negilent on my part.