Dog parks and Socialization

Well I don't have any ideas for you, but I will say that you are right - this is terrible advice.  It's an accident waiting to happen.  Not just for her & the other dogs' psyches, but they could be severly physically injured in the process.

What kind of trainer encourages someone to bring a known reactive dog to run unleashed in a dog park?!  I'm just baffled.

I'm another one who does not do dog parks.  I took Harry to a local one a few times when he was a pup.  I had some good experiences, but Harry was also attacked by another dog, clear out of the blue, at the dog park.  Not once, but TWICE by the same dog.  The owner was an idiot, she & her dog had no business being in a dog park.  For the sake of my dogs, we just don't go anymore.

I socialize my guys with friends' dogs who I know.  We frequently have friends & dogs over to the house (we had 5 dogs over for Thanksgiving, lol).  We go to the river every weekend in summer where my guys get to play with a friend's 3 dogs and swim and run around and have fun.  For others out there looking for alternatives to dog parks, there are always doggy play groups that can be joined or set up, where people know what the other dogs are like.

I hope others come along with some good ideas for Maze.  I shudder to think, tho, that other people are taking the advice of this "trainer."

i aggree with Heather. I wouldn't set her up for failure at a dog park. But i do think it is a good idea to set up a play time with some very friendly dogs that you know and let them play. Now you said you would use a muzzle , i think that great. I believe it makes a dog react in a different way then they want to only because they have no choice. I have an 8 yr old nuetured male American pit Bull. From the time i got him at 12 weeks old he already had issues with other dogs, I socialized him everywhere(except dog parks). We went to all the pet stores we enrolled in a couple doggy play  times. We went over to others houses with other dog big one little ones, we also had two other dogs where i was living at the time. He would play fine most of the time until some one had something he wanted, this was noticed at a very early age @4months.When he was about a yr old he was starting to be a little dangerous with other dogs when not right there monitoring his every move.  Not until he was about 2 ys old did i try the muzzle. This was the best thing that i could have done  at that point. I wish i had don it sooner. He completly changed his attitude when he would ware it during play time. Plus i could relax and not worry about him getting into a fight.

I my dogs situation, i think the owner that had him for those 5 weeks before me thought it was cool to see him get aggresive toward his litter mate. It all started there. The other two dogs that he lived with were both nuetured males but both very dominate too. He never really had a chance. I should have not let him play with those aggrerwsive dogs as much. And i should have introduced him to the muzzle sooner so he could have changed his strategy at an earlier age.

I hope this was a little helpful. But i do think that a muzzle will he if in the right situation.  

 wow that seems to be some seriously bad advice - Bugsy is better than average with dogs but I wouldn't bring him to a dog park after he discovered a dog he doesn't like - I realized with that, that we ask a whole lot of dogs assuming they will get along with every other dog.

I am sure others with much better experience and knowledge than I will respond but I would think that carefully socializing her with known dogs (who have great temperaments) in small manageable environments would be best.  I know you do plenty of training with her so may be in the training environments you know a dog or two that would be suitable.

Other things might be just pure exposure, sitting at a park where others walk their dogs or a shopping area where people walk with dogs.  You may have to increase the distance between her and them initially but the goal would be to slowly decrease her acceptable distance

Interestingly we have a dog in our neighborhood who is psycho reactive but is wonderful at daycare (or so the owner says LOL) May be she would do OK in a small group

 Piper really does not like other dogs in her face.  She air snaps and growls, so I don't force it.  She would like to play with the neighbors Britt, but doesn't want anybody to know she enjoyed it..  When she is on task (hunting), there is no problem as her attention is focused on work.  Rags and Bear did not really like each other, but on leash side by side were fine and hunted well together.  If you could get Maze working on something together with a nonthreatening dog , would that help.

You seem to understand the situation quite well.  My only suggestion is to avoid the trainer.  He seems to be hard wired wrong.

I would suggest you get Jean Donaldson's book 'Fight'.  What I would do with Maze is a program of desensitization and counterconditioning.   The key to this being successful involves two principles.  You need to create a CER (conditioned emotional response) using food or play coupled with a very upbeat voice/attitude when a dog approaches.  The second and equally important part of this program is to make sure you are always working sub threshold.  Many dogs who lunge, snap and show aggression to other dogs are actually fearful and this is their way of making the scary thing go away.  To be successful with this method, you must not let the approaching dog get close enough to trigger a response from Maze. This is where a helper comes in very handy, as you can control the distance of the approaching dog.  A bomb proof helper dog is helpful, as the body language will be relaxed and non confrontational. 

This is all outlined in detail in Donaldson's book.  Maze will be a much happier dog if she learns to assoicate the approach and eventually the presence of another dog a good thing. 

 Thanks guys! I knew I could count on you!

Jackie, I have been doing that with relatively success. Until recently she went after a doodle who had cancer and bit the dog on the muzzle. She didn't draw blood and released as soon as I called her off.  The situation could have been avoided except I didn't notice the other dog until it was too late.

I agree Maze displays fearful signals when she lunges. She gives a hard stare, tense body language then as she lunges, she curls her body and tucks her tail. She darts in, snaps and darts out. If the dog snaps back, she'll back down.  Now if a dog is rude, she'll correct and go on her way.  Here's the catch thou.. This is all on leash.... If she is off leash, she'll snap and drive the dog away then continue on her merry way.

The good thing with the muzzle I have is it's a little bit big so I can still feed her treats with no danger to another dog. 

I'll defiantly look for that book.  Thanks again! 

 Doug, Maze will try and "protect" her job.. When we were doing agility, she would be focused on working but if there was another dog doing a different piece of equipment, she'd go and try to drive the other dog off the field.  She would not allow another dog to work near her.  Needless to say she spent quite a bit of time in a crate while the others worked.

oranges81

Jackie, I have been doing that with relatively success

The face that you use the term "relative success" is important.  Intermittent reinforcement is powerful stuff.  I know it's very hard to control the environment but if you would be willing to not risk any sort of negative encounter until you've counterconditioned her, you'll find that the training will go much faster.

 I'm more then willing to not risk any negative encounter.  Thou it is kinda hard when people are idiots with their dogs.   I've been managing her for so long, I'd just love more then anything to walk down the street and not have to worry about her going after another dog.

You might want to look into Grisha Stewart's BAT technique - it's ideal for reactive/fearful dogs, both with human and/or dog issues.  She has written about it on her blog quite a bit; let me see if I can find a link for you.

eta link: http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/bat/

JackieG

I would suggest you get Jean Donaldson's book 'Fight'.  What I would do with Maze is a program of desensitization and counterconditioning.   The key to this being successful involves two principles.  You need to create a CER (conditioned emotional response) using food or play coupled with a very upbeat voice/attitude when a dog approaches.  The second and equally important part of this program is to make sure you are always working sub threshold.  Many dogs who lunge, snap and show aggression to other dogs are actually fearful and this is their way of making the scary thing go away.  To be successful with this method, you must not let the approaching dog get close enough to trigger a response from Maze. This is where a helper comes in very handy, as you can control the distance of the approaching dog.  A bomb proof helper dog is helpful, as the body language will be relaxed and non confrontational. 

This is all outlined in detail in Donaldson's book.  Maze will be a much happier dog if she learns to assoicate the approach and eventually the presence of another dog a good thing. 

 

This is great advice, and so is the suggestion about BAT, which is basically the same principle - you work under your dog's threshold so that she doesn't respond with her normal reaction.  The trainer you spoke to might not have been that far off the mark in one sense, although his advice certainly was stupid.  However, we often see dogs that are highly reactive when they are on leash, behind a fence, in a crate, or anywhere they feel trapped, but when they are off leash they do well with other dogs.  That, in fact, is really the main difference between reactivity and true aggression.  The aggressive dog behaves aggressively both on and off leash, while the reactive dog only reacts while on leash or when the personal space gets invaded.

 So, lets say a hypothetical dog is truly just reactive. Wouldn't a muzzle get the same reaction as a leash?

IMO if a dog might bite another dog hard enough to cause damage, then a muzzle is a better choice.( you never now what the other dogs owner may do, like sue you) You can't always adoid loose dogs or irresponsible owners who just let their dog approch every dog without asking. If she is muzzled in the situations when this could occur then she is going to react differently towards the other dog, because she nows she's more vulnerable. Regardless if it is aggression or reactive. But this is just my opinion, but i think it is substantial.

She didn't bite hard enough to cause damage.  She has never caused damage.  I know it is a possibility but I also know my dog.  And if my dog is on leash and the other dog is loose, they are the ones responsible for the damages.