Dog parks and Socialization

oranges81

And if my dog is on leash and the other dog is loose, they are the ones responsible for the damages.  

Common sense says so, however as we know there are a lot of people out there who lack it.  Say the loose dog is much smaller than Maze,  then regardless of who is the irresponsible one (the loose dog's owner), they could still try and sue.  Obviously that's a headache no one wants.

Karla Welch

Plus i could relax and not worry about him getting into a fight.

You still have to worry about him starting a fight. Now, you just don't have to worry that he'll finish it. He can still be injured, but cannot defend himself. IMO, this is a terrible idea, unless ALL dogs involved are wearing muzzles.

aerial1313

oranges81

And if my dog is on leash and the other dog is loose, they are the ones responsible for the damages.  

Common sense says so, however as we know there are a lot of people out there who lack it.  Say the loose dog is much smaller than Maze,  then regardless of who is the irresponsible one (the loose dog's owner), they could still try and sue.  Obviously that's a headache no one wants.

Here it's not only common sense, it's the law.  The leashed dog/owner is not responsible for damages done. No matter the size, thou it seems people are more willing to keep little dogs on leash then larger ones. 

Then again, if it was a little dog, Maze would try and play, not eat it. lol

jennie_c_d

Karla Welch

Plus i could relax and not worry about him getting into a fight.

 

You still have to worry about him starting a fight. Now, you just don't have to worry that he'll finish it. He can still be injured, but cannot defend himself. IMO, this is a terrible idea, unless ALL dogs involved are wearing muzzles.

I would never let Maze run off leash with a muzzle because of this reason. She has no way to defend her self. 

well, IMO people should read what people write a little closer. This way people don't misinterput what someone is trying to say. Obviously you would never turn your dog loose with other dogs you didn't know. And definetly not at a dog park!!

I've delt with this first hand. If your minding your own bussiness walking your dog(muzzled) down the street and another dog approches and  starts aggresing what do you do?  well I protect my dog . If my dog inflicks injury to someone else's dog more than likely i'll be blamed because my dog is a pit bull. I know this it is a shame, but if my dog is muzzled he can't inflick any injury and he can't be held reponsible. Maybe some states are more leanit towards pit bulls but i would rather be able to take my dog out and see nature and excersise and play with out worrying about a law suit. My dog has never been hurt, I always protect him, but if he got in a fight like alot of dogs do just because of his breed there could be serious consiquences. 

I think in Mazes' situation a muzzle is a great idea, you suggested it youself(i think). You have to protect her. Get some friendly dogs for her to play with alot. put her muzzle on and she will learn how to play without bitting being her first reaction. watch her, your the pack leader and are supposed to protect her in these situations. Many people don't believe in  beign the pack  leader but it would really help Maze IMO

 Off leash isn't the issue thou. It's on leash.  I don't own a pit bull. Maze is a lab mix. She has learned that off leash, I'll step in if I feel things get out of hand.  She does not like rude dogs/ puppies and I'll tell the owners that.  However around here, friendly dogs are few and far between.

Karla Welch

I've delt with this first hand. If your minding your own bussiness walking your dog(muzzled) down the street and another dog approches and  starts aggresing what do you do?

I protect my dog even if she's not muzzled.   

On leash or off lease muzzle still accomplishes the reaction. I think that the law you have up there in Canada(?) is a good one. Just like you said more people are willing to put their dogs on a leash, and why should the leased one ever be held responsible. that is definitley it "should" i wish it were like that down here.Unfortunately people in us are soo... xxxxx that they don't want to take reponsibility for there actions. I aggree with you on that one. But isn't there a way that you might be able to hustle up some friendlies(dogs) to train with. Do you have any other dogs in your family? 

oranges81

If she is off leash, she'll snap and drive the dog away then continue on her merry way.

I wouldn't ever have her off leash if she reacts like this.  I would think that you would know some dogs from your training center who are dog friendly and who might have an owner willing to help you with the counterconditioning.  What about your trainer/mentor? It's not an easy problem to overcome but it rarely gets better without some serious effort to desensitize and countercondition the reactive dog.  Again, I wouldn't allow any dog contact unless it's at a level Maze can handle without reacting.  Playing with friendly dogs she's knows is well and good but mostly she needs to be conditioned to not react aggressively to dogs she doesn't know. 

 Karla, I have a JRT as well. And they get along just fine. However I'm the only one in the house who can handle the dogs properly.

Jackie, I don't let Maze off leash anymore unless I can guarantee that there are no other dogs around. If one shows up, I just call Maze and let her know play time is over and head home.  I've spoken to my trainer and she just suggests that I continue on the way I am. Use the environment around me since it's difficult to set up situations with other dogs. The amount of reactive dogs here is surprisingly high.  I've removed all dog play until I get this under control.

I wish you all the best and know you'll work hard at helping her overcome her reactivity. 

I'm curious, what is the motivation behind the dog park and/or the socialization?  At this age and considering all you've done, I honestly would work more along the lines of management and trying to build Maze's confidence in other areas.  Some dogs just don't like other dogs.  Doesn't mean they have an excuse to react or blow off commands, but is there a reason she *must* be socialized to the point where she can be off leash at a dog park, and what happens if she can't?  If it is for training/demo-ing, I know plenty of well trained, highly titled dogs that trainers used for demos that would not be OK at a dog park or being approached by strange dogs.  But, training and doing demos is a controlled setting where the dog can work and do a demo within the comfort zone.

I would definitely nix the dog park idea but it sounds like you've already done that.  To be honest, the reasons the trainer gave you FOR bringing her to the dog park are the exact reasons I do not take my dog-friendly dogs TO the dog park.  We are not there to be experimented on by reactive dogs.  In fact, I went to the dog park once w/ DH and Coke and never went back b/c this "trainer" was there with a bully breed trying to force it to be submissive to the other dogs.

I'm not real keen on the muzzle either.  I don't really see the purpose unless she is actually breaking loose and attacking dogs?  I would never, ever muzzle my dogs just because *other* reactive or aggressive dogs might come and attack them.  The only muzzle training I do is in protection work, training the dog TO engage regardless of whether it can bite or not.

I guess I'm just not big on the idea of "flooding".  If a dog is clearly uncomfortable being approached by strange dogs then I don't force that issue.  At home in a controlled environment where the dog is "safe", I work on obedience and building the dog's confidence and trust in our relationship so that I can always control my dog in public even when other people can't control their dogs, but I never expect any of my dogs (even dog-friendly ones) to be totally OK with a strange dog rushing them.

Liesje

I'm not real keen on the muzzle either.  I don't really see the purpose unless she is actually breaking loose and attacking dogs?  I would never, ever muzzle my dogs just because *other* reactive or aggressive dogs might come and attack them.  The only muzzle training I do is in protection work, training the dog TO engage regardless of whether it can bite or not.

I guess I'm just not big on the idea of "flooding".  If a dog is clearly uncomfortable being approached by strange dogs then I don't force that issue.  At home in a controlled environment where the dog is "safe", I work on obedience and building the dog's confidence and trust in our relationship so that I can always control my dog in public even when other people can't control their dogs, but I never expect any of my dogs (even dog-friendly ones) to be totally OK with a strange dog rushing them.

Amen, amen, amen. Lies, you say things so much better than I do!!!

 I don't care if she never plays with another dog again. My biggest concern is being able to walk down the street and pass close to another dog without her going ballistic. 

Jackie, I'm trying to do my best in a crappy situation. This town is not dog savvy when it comes to issues like these.

oranges81

I'm trying to do my best in a crappy situation. This town is not dog savvy when it comes to issues like these.

Believe me, I understand and know you're actively working on it.  Why else would you have posted?   lol  Agree too with not all dogs needing to be social butterflies. 

I really think you are doing the best you can.  Really, it's not your problem if someone else's dog charges your dog and she is under your physical control on a leash.  If she is throwing fits at the sight of another dog before that dog does anything, then I would work on building focus at home for a while, take some of the pressure off rather than go the flooding route or try to wear her down.  There was about four months solid where I could not take Nikon anywhere but Schutzhund training, not even a walk around the block.  His threshold was very low at that point, and as we know once the dog does react it's really too late to take advantage of a training opportunity.  I didn't like that lack of control over what other owners and dogs were doing or how close they could get so I went at it from a totally different angle which was removing ALL dog exposure for several months while I proofed the obedience.  Even now that he is 2.5 years old and basically "cured" of the reactivity I still use the LAT game (anytime I see him noticing another dog and turning his attention back to me, I mark and reward with whatever I can even if praise is all I have available).  If I put Nikon in a long down and plan to break and reward him after 5 minutes of down, but after only 30 seconds down another dog rushes him, gets in his face, and he maintains the down, I will immediately break and reward him because to me that level of tolerance and progress trumps whatever it was I was initially going to mark and reward.  There's a few dogs Nikon knows that he'd probably be OK playing with off lead but I just decided that it's easier to just say no off lead interactions with dogs other than my own pack.  It's much easier to manage and make progress when you are 100% consistent.  The dog learns that other dogs are just there, nothing to get really happy or really upset about.  Depending on the dog (maturity, temperament, relationship w/ me) when we get to a certain point in training, I am not opposed to making it clear that certain behaviors are absolutely not tolerated.