What does a positive trainer do when a dog bites?

corvus

What would you do? Not saying that it has to be positive, just what would you do as a positive trainer?

I correct it immediately.  Then I ramp up NILF to a very strict level to remind the dog that I'm the one in charge.

Corvus, is this a real or a thought up scenario?  I guess I'm having a hard time picturing a dog actually biting it's own handler other than mouthing (unless that's what you mean) or some fear/reactive incident.  A dog actually biting the handler to me is handler aggression, absolutely unacceptable assuming the handler did not deserve it (since it's a "positive trainer" s/he wouldn't be abusing or over-correcting the dog).  It is not something I would deal with just with a time-out and more NILIF.  If my own dog bit me during training I'd immediately correct, put the dog away, and sit down to rethink the dog and the training.

My puppy is confident and can be grabby with his rewards, refusing to out them, and has in the past done this or that to test his limits but he's never just come off and bit me.  If he did I'd know there's something majorly wrong with our relationship, the training, and/or the temperament of the dog.

I don’t know if this is the situation in the case mentioned.  There is a lot to consider when evaluating the dog.  How old?  Background?  Previous training… I wouldn’t even know how to go about this problem without meeting the dog in person.

Liesje

I guess I'm having a hard time picturing a dog actually biting it's own handler other than mouthing (unless that's what you mean) or some fear/reactive incident.  A dog actually biting the handler to me is handler aggression, absolutely unacceptable assuming the handler did not deserve it (since it's a "positive trainer" s/he wouldn't be abusing or over-correcting the dog).  It is not something I would deal with just with a time-out and more NILIF.  If my own dog bit me during training I'd immediately correct, put the dog away, and sit down to rethink the dog and the training.

Ditto.  Corvus, can you elaborate on what was happening at the time of the bite?   What is relationship of dog to trainer and how long had trainer owned or been working with dog?  Dog's history?  Too many questions in my mind, obviously. lol

Maybe not a trainer per see but this scenario might be more real life...

Dog is on the sofa or bed...owner tells it OFF, and the dog refuses..when owner moves to either move the dog or simply sit next to the dog...the dog gives them a corrective bite like that a mother gives a pup quick and with minimal damage...but still scary.

That kinda seems similar to the scenario mentioned...pushy dog, owner/trainer (since most trainers do own their own dogs and go home sometime lol!)....being victmized by said dog for requiring obedience. In this case an owner/trainer that uses ONLY positive...

I guess the catch 22 would be that if you use only positive chances are your dog wouldn't dream of the above? I suppose that's what some would say...realistic or not.

In Gina's scenario I would immediately make it known to the dog that that behavior is absolutely NOT tolerated (how/what I would do depends on the dog).  Then the dog would be completely restricted from guarding/interacting with that resource.  Any time out of confinement (crate, kennel, pen, whatever is used to define the "dog's" space vs. the rest of the property) would be for training, play, or exercise controlled by me (ie, no dog out of confinement free to roam the house/yard and do as he pleases). Eventually I would reintroduce the resource if the dog made progress.  For example after doing a lot of NILIF if I thought the dog was ready to go back on the bed, I would invite the dog on (ME asking the dog to come on), pet and give treat, then command the dog off, praise/reward.  Then rinse, repeat, making sure to make a positive association with me being the owner of the resource and never having to force the dog off/away, also doing this repeatedly so the dog does not refuse to leave b/c it ends the fun (similar to doing recalls but always "freeing" the dog back to what he wanted to do rather than removing him from the fun).

I don't think this type of scenario is unique to one training method or another.  I don't use "only positive" on any of my dogs or dogs I've had in my home temporarily or for training at SchH club and have never so much as had a dog growl or show a tooth at me for any reason other than growling in play or getting tagged by a tooth in play.  Even in the scenario given where no damage is done with the bite and it's not a full out attack, I just can't imagine one of my dogs behaving that way.  There would either be something unacceptable to me about the dog's temperament, or I would have made some big mistakes with training leading up to that (with the exception of say, adopting a brand new dog with an unknown history, but even then I'd never allow such a dog enough freedom to bite me over anything).

Liesje

I would immediately make it known to the dog that that behavior is absolutely NOT tolerated (how/what I would do depends on the dog).

Can you elaborate more on what would you do with Niko, what would you do with Kenya and what would you do with Coke right after the bite and right before the confintment? How would you let them know that the behavior is not tolerated? How do you think they would get the point right there at that moment?

When I took Ike to a seminar in April, Ike bit Michael Ellis, the person giving the seminar, during one session. We were doing leash pressure work and at first Ike did not know how to turn off the pressure so he bit. When he bit Ellis, Ellis did not even look up. He didn't say anything to Ike like "No" or "Stop". Instead he just kept on working with Ike as though nothing happened. Afterward he said the quickest way to extinguish this kind of behavior is to not acknowledge it, to act unimpressed (so unimpressed that you didn't even feel the need to give it a response) and not let it stop you from what you are doing.

I'm not sure, I can't fathom any of my dogs actually biting me like that.  A dog *like* Nikon that is very resilient would get a physical correction with the "I mean business" tone of voice, and social correction (I would correct the dog and then immediately confine and ignore him).  Dogs like Kenya and Coke...they are both such softies it's hard to imagine either of them even giving a "stink eye" look, let alone a growl or a bite.  But I guess if the dog was ballsy enough to bite me then the correction would match.  I can tell you what I would NOT do - I would not simply walk away from the situation, I would not flip/roll the dog, I would not put the dog back in the situation and have some physical altercation trying to "prove" my dominance over the resource (like putting a bowl of food in front of a food aggressive dog and using a leash to keep yanking him back while I grab the bowl), I would not allow the dog near that resource or anything else of equal or higher value for a long time, I would not continue training the way I had been b/c obviously it did not work.

Jason L

When I took Ike to a seminar in April, Ike bit Michael Ellis, the person giving the seminar, during one session. We were doing leash pressure work and at first Ike did not know how to turn off the pressure so he bit. When he bit Ellis, Ellis did not even look up. He didn't say anything to Ike like "No" or "Stop". Instead he just kept on working with Ike as though nothing happened. Afterward he said the quickest way to extinguish this kind of behavior is to not acknowledge it, to act unimpressed (so unimpressed that you didn't even feel the need to give it a response) and not let it stop you from what you are doing.

I was thinking of a similar scenario where Nikon bit our helper who was getting him all revved up (and Nikon works in defense and not for a sleeve, if you stick your right arm out and your left with the sleeve, there's no guarantee he bites the sleeve, lol, he bites whatever body part is presented).  Helper underestimated the level of arousal in the dog and got bit, but never once even acknowledged the dog, just kept right on working.  It was strictly an error on the part of the humans.  The dog did as he was trained.

For me though there is a line between these situations where we are intentionally arousing the dog very high (or applying a lot of pressure that is new) and the dog is working out the right behavior to neutralize the problem and a dog of my own that would bite me in my own home or with me handling.  I know plenty of dogs do, but that's beyond what I am comfortable with.

I agree with what you said about the working situation ... especially since in each of these exercises, there is a very specific way we want the dog to  overcome the pressure. So you can't just let the dogs dictate the situation and come up with their own ways to relieve stress.

As for dogs at home - I would look at a couple of things: the age of the dog, what kind of dog (temperament) and whether he has done this before. If it is a young dog or if this is the first time he does something like that, then I don't think there will be much conviction before the bark/growl/bite. It is more likely that he is just trying something out to see if he can get away with it. In the case, I think the best response is still no response - or if possible, tell the dog to knock it off in a nonchalant, nonconfrontational way. Now, if this is an adult dog that has been getting away with this kind of behavior for awhile, then I think a correction is definitely in order and I would absolutely do what you described: reconfigure the dog's life and his access to resources to make sure he understands he lives in my house, not the other way around.

P.S. Nikon will make an awesome suit dog someday if you guys ever decide to go that route! 

To clarify: nonconfrontational response does not mean you don't do anything. In the case that Gina mentions, you still have to get the dog off the sofa and keep the dog off it.

Jason L

P.S. Nikon will make an awesome suit dog someday if you guys ever decide to go that route! 

I really hope so!  He's done it once.  I'm hoping the UKC brings back Dog Sport so I have something to work towards going that route.