What does a positive trainer do when a dog bites?

I think the question is a bit un-realistic, to be honest.

If I have a dog that I am unfamiliar with, regardless of the temperament it is going to be on strict routine and lifestyle until I get a better feel for the dog and any issues that might crop up. If I know outright the dog is pushy and confident, than its lifestyle will be controlled much moreso - NILIF from step one, on-leash all time, controlled freedoms, work-to-earn for everything, no free resources. I won't set the dog up to be in a situation to bite as I slowly develop a profile for this dog.

If I have had the dog for several months to a year, and I know the dog very well, the chances of it just suddenly up and "biting to see what happens as an option" one day is so minimal I'm not even sure it is a realistic statement. I have been around too many dogs, raised too many dogs, and lived with too many types of personalities. I have never been scared of having a dog of my own biting me.  Dogs don't just one day decide to use confidence-based biting as an option out of the blue (at least I do not believe so) There are always signs that something is going awry before a bite happens, it just depends on the skills of that trainer as to whether or not they caught the early signs or totally ignored them.

That said, regardless of the reason for the bite, if I did get bitten for some reason, first I make sure that I can make the situation safe so that I, another person, or another dog don't get bitten - at that point, it's not training, it is all damage control to get the situation solved. It has nothing to do with being positive, you use the measures that are strong enough, but the least invasive required, to make sure there is no risk of another bite at that time. I'm not out to "show the dog whose boss" or "one up" the dog at that point in time - I have no interest in that, and chances are neither does the dog. If the dog is that confident, then chances are you aren't going to do anything through force right then that will make the dog think otherwise, or in any way "respect" you (you can bully a dog sometimes physically, but it doesn't result in respect or trust, or necessarily change the situation for next time) especially when everyone's arousal is high, and if you do you simply risk more injury, and I would honestly say at that point it is your own fault if you get bitten again.

Once a situation is calmed, I will assess the reason for the bite, and how to fix it. I wouldnt' begin to make a "recipe" for something like this and I can't, and won't, even begin to say "what I would do" because every situation is completely different from the next in what might be appropriate or required to defuse the situation, to ensure safety of all, and to do an assessment of the bite,  because there is no one-size-fits-all answer.

To me it would be symptomatic of a bigger problem. I would be taking a step back and really examining my relationship with the dog and what led to him not only thinking that behaviour was acceptable but that he felt he needed to seriously bite me in the first place.

When Daisy was around six months old, she would growl/snap at me if I tried to move her off the lounge, she was a very head strong and stubborn puppy - although the snapping was never serious or enough to hurt but it got to the point where I had to take a step back and think about what was really causing it. We worked with a behaviourist to sort out the bigger problem and it's never happened again, but it did open my eyes to looking at the bigger picture.

Very well said, Kim.   I especially agree with this part. 

Kim_MacMillan

If I have had the dog for several months to a year, and I know the dog very well, the chances of it just suddenly up and "biting to see what happens as an option" one day is so minimal I'm not even sure it is a realistic statement. I have been around too many dogs, raised too many dogs, and lived with too many types of personalities. I have never been scared of having a dog of my own biting me.  Dogs don't just one day decide to use confidence-based biting as an option out of the blue (at least I do not believe so) There are always signs that something is going awry before a bite happens, it just depends on the skills of that trainer as to whether or not they caught the early signs or totally ignored them.

Like many others I just cant picture any of my dogs snapping or biting me or any of my family members in an aggressive manner.

Kes has grabbed my hand or arm during high arousal play, but I don't consider it the same as an aggressive bite.  In those situations, I often will yelp or say ouch (total automatic reaction, not a training technique) and then the game stops immediately until he calms down.  This technique of ceasing interaction works - we haven't had any mouth on skin contact in those settings for good long while.

I would likely react similarly in an aggressive outburst situation but I would try very hard to reduce or eliminate my natural yelp or ouch reaction to avoid escalating the situation.  Once the bite was averted (or ceased) I would then assess the situation to determine triggers and develop a plan to reduce or eliminate those triggers unless in a controlled, training environment until the issue was resolved.

Willow has never bitten me.  But, when I thought she might I used NILIF. 

An aggressive response to a bite can get you in trouble.  Initially, the response should be as low key as you can make it and everything you do should be designed so that you remain safe in the immediate scenario.  As Kim so rightly points out, one needs to assess the situational components.  A dog that suddenly bites you, but for whom the behavior is uncharacteristic, should first and foremost be examined by its veterinarian for any medical issues.  Dogs that are aggressive are generally responding to a perceived threat, or they are seeking a resource that want sufficiently strongly to get nasty over.  We need to remember that aggression is a hard-wired coping mechanism for dogs that is legitimate in their eyes, just as we might think it legitimate to tackle a thief who is running away with mom's purse (I wouldn't advise that either, purses and their contents can be replaced).  We might tackle in that situation, but be totally calm and rational in all other situations.  Remove confrontation from the equation - it's never about showing the dog who is boss, it's about showing the dog that aggression is not necessary in that situation any more (we could call 9-1-1 instead of tackling).   In Gina's example, the resting spot is important to that dog.  So, if it were me, (and this is a highly shortened version) I'd ignore the dog right at that moment until it got off the couch on its own.  Then, I would attach a drag line (or leash with the loop sewn closed) to the animal's collar (that enables you to *safely*, but nicely, insist that the dog get off the couch in an emergency).  Next, I put my bait bag on and have my clicker ready.  Whenever the dog exits the couch on his own, I click and treat (yup, even if I only catch it a couple of times a day).  Eventually, I add a cue, such as "floor" (most dogs have heard "off" a gazillion times and have learned to completely blow it off).  A dog that has been positively reinforced a gazillion times for jumping off the couch will learn that it's to his advantage to jump off on cue, and can be conditioned to exit the couch voluntarily (which is always better than force, which can escalate some dogs to bite you when you approach to preempt the collar grab that they have learned will come - i.e., they get more dangerous, not less). I also would begin a training regimen designed to reduce the possibility of guarding anything in other circumstances, too.  A dog with which you can communicate is nearly always a dog that is less inclined to bite, not more.  The earlier in a pup's life that you can teach him the cues of sit, lie, wait, leave it, come, the better he will do.  Confusion is your enemy with dogs.  So is physical or visual intimidation. 

Those of you who want to show the dog that the bite is unacceptable behavior right at that moment are playing with fire.  Your own dog may not escalate (not a given), but will almost certainly learn to distrust you a bit more, and actually come to think you are weak.  Remember that powerful dogs rarely engage in bluster, so I propose that it's better to meet bites, or exuberant play, mouthiness, or bluster, with calm, not with a raised voice or a threat.  Have you ever seen little dogs when they get frightened of a larger dog?  They do what I call the little dog freeze.  They don't run, they don't squeal, they just stand there.  The larger dog often leaves because there was no engagement.  It's a very useful strategy that you can also use to free yourself  to make a more cogent evaluation of the situation, and meet it with medical investigation, training, and behavior modification strategies that make sense, rather than a knee jerk "correction" that might add fuel to the fire.  It gives you time to rationally decide which form of aggression you are dealing with, and aggression issues are sometimes more complex than we like to assume.

Thanks for the replies so far. This is a real scenario. It wasn't a bite "out of the blue", but it is believed that it was an escalation of pushy behaviour that was accidentally rewarded through passive handling. It was only a surprise in that the escalation was unexpected.

It was not a bite driven by fear or over-arousal or redirection/frustration, although who's to say they did not contribute in some way. It occurred as an attempt to prevent the owner leaving the dog alone, so presumably there is some SA involved. I have read the literature on this and understand SA coupled with an aggressive attempt to stop the owner from leaving is rare.

The dog was already under strict NILIF and there is little leeway to increase this. 

The dog does not display resource guarding behaviour, including guarding the owner from other dogs or people.

The dog is obedient, clicker trained, and has been punished very rarely.

The dog does not growl or snarl at the owner, or throw tantrums, or do hard stares, and none of these behaviours preceded the bite. The owner is able to handle the dog for any reason and is permitted to take coveted objects from the dog or move the dog from favoured resting places.

The dog has been fine with the owner leaving until the presumed recent accidental reinforcement of pushy behaviour related to the movements of the owner. 

Well, maybe I'm wrong but I would think this IS resource guarding.  I'm not a trainer but I would probably give some sort of treat or something to distract from me leaving. 

Also, I might just not be understanding your choice of words the way you mean them but I don't think you can have strick NILIF and passive handing? 

That said, NILIF did little for my dogs resource guarding.  Yes, over time she did stop doing it with me.  But, it took a very long time. 

I hope they can work everything out. 

My friends parents had a large sheepdog when we were growing up and the dog would try to bite and lunge at people when they were trying to leave!  He was fine with anyone and everyone coming into the house but if they tried to leave it was a big problem.  They used to leave treats by the door so people could grab one to throw as they were going, LOL. 

I would encourage you the owner to seek an assessment from a behaviourist, it's amazing the things we can miss that an experienced trainer will pick up straight away. These kinds of situations are always worth having examined by an impartial and knowledge person IMO.

willowchow

Well, maybe I'm wrong but I would think this IS resource guarding. 

That's a good point. Is it resource guarding? I dunno. To me it seems like a kind of second order resource guarding. Like the dog is trying to control the one that controls all the resources. But it's weird that it doesn't happen any other time, don't you think? Seems like a case of specific cues to me.

willowchow

Also, I might just not be understanding your choice of words the way you mean them but I don't think you can have strick NILIF and passive handing? 

Sorry, that wasn't very clear. Owner went out and came back to get something. Ignored the dog, but the pushy behaviour started then. Presumably the dog felt it had influenced the owner's return? A few of us think it very likely. Perhaps it happened in specific circumstances and that's why the behaviour was ultimately (so far) only associated with one particular scenario? Or, maybe that's not what happened at all and it's more a linking of arousal levels with cues that resulted in the possibility of biting where it wouldn't nomally occur. There could be a lot of factors involved. Eh, I think I'm just confusing the matter. Why it happened and how it was handled it kind of beside the point. What do you do if you make a poor judgement that results in a dog trying to (or succeeding in) biting you? In particular, a bossy dog biting you? Does it matter the personality of the dog?

willowchow

I hope they can work everything out. 

At last report there was no sign of the behaviour being repeated. There's been some good advice the owner has followed.

 This was actually the topic of a seminar at a conference I attended a while back.  IIRC they treated it with SA protocols coupled with impulse control work. 

I was just thinking of a combination of SA-related problems with lack of impulse control - ie, the dog doesn't know what else to do in that situation.

I also don't get the idea of strict NILIF with passive handling. The two are incompatible...if you are on true strict NILIF, then the dog wouldn't have that freedom around the doors to begin with.

After a full medical workup, I would definitely be working on impulse control exercises, including something like Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol, mixed with some anti-SA exercises.

I would also totally prevent the dog to have access to the provocative doorways. If that means kennels, baby gates, or x-pens, or a leash on at all times, so be it. Until the dog can provide good manners at the door, it shouldn't be allowed to make decisions at the door.

SA can bring out some weird behaviours in dogs, including redirected aggression.

If the dog has separation anxiety, I would be hard pressed to say that this bite was in any way confident when it bit though, to be honest. And I would wager there were impending signs that the handler clearly missed before the bite, but that those signs were missed or ignored.

corvus

Thanks for the replies so far. This is a real scenario. It wasn't a bite "out of the blue", but it is believed that it was an escalation of pushy behaviour that was accidentally rewarded through passive handling. It was only a surprise in that the escalation was unexpected.

It was not a bite driven by fear or over-arousal or redirection/frustration, although who's to say they did not contribute in some way. It occurred as an attempt to prevent the owner leaving the dog alone, so presumably there is some SA involved. I have read the literature on this and understand SA coupled with an aggressive attempt to stop the owner from leaving is rare.

The dog was already under strict NILIF and there is little leeway to increase this. 

The dog does not display resource guarding behaviour, including guarding the owner from other dogs or people.

The dog is obedient, clicker trained, and has been punished very rarely.

All these considered, then IMO such a bite out of the blue to a handler who has seemingly done everything right is just the temperament of the dog, I would think.  I have not dealt with SA before, but it sounds extremely odd to me that a dog would bite the owner in order to *keep* the owner nearby.  If the above is the whole story, then if it were my dog I'd just have to manage the environment to prevent more bites.

But I share the same confusion.  How can strict NILIF be accomplished when the owners were too "passive" (I'm assuming this means let the dog get away with things)?

corvus

Say you have a dog that is very confident and pushy. Say your dog gets a bit cocky one day over something it doesn't want you to do and bites you hard enough to really hurt

corvus

It occurred as an attempt to prevent the owner leaving the dog alone, so presumably there is some SA involved. I have read the literature on this and understand SA coupled with an aggressive attempt to stop the owner from leaving is rare.

I dont know if there are confident/pushy dogs that have SA (maybe there are?). Even when dominance over humans is very rare it sounds that this might be one of those dogs (yes they are not like unicorns, they actually exist).

The "passive" handling has contributed to the dog's pushiness. You can do "strict" NILIF but if the human's body language is not assertive enough then the dog will know that a "passive" human is behind it.

It sounds like the humans need to be more assertive (and that does not include man-handling the dog), in other words they need to seriously mean what the dog is expected to do.

This bite was a clear message from the dog to the owner and the message was "you dont leave until I say so" and has nothing to so with SA, the dog just told the owner "you are part of MY pack and i decide who goes where".

I would believe that dogs with SA are more shy, nervous and are not confident enough to be alone by themselves in the house, very "velcro" dogs. This dog sounds the opposite.

I knew a guy who's dog was exactly doing the same, every time he was leaving the house the dog was standing between the door and him and growled. An SA dog would actually expect to go with the owner wherever the owner's going, not prevent him from leaving. An SA dog definitely looks up to the human, the human is his "life line" and he would not put in risk any that might break that "line" by biting the human.

Not because some posters here are against the idea of dogs being dominant over humans that does not mean that there is no one single dog in this world that is that way. If you have the right mix of dog-human then it can happen.