Desperate Help with our new 10 month old Bichon Frise PLEASE!

 What do you recommend my daughter should do if he repeats this behavior?

I recommend that she not stare at him, that she turns her body a little to the side and that she tosses a treat on the floor to him and then backs away so he can have it.  He needs to learn that she is a provider of his resources, just as you are, and that she is cool.  Kids with dog biscuits are way more cool than kids who stare and reach for dogs that fear them.

What do you guys think?

Suffice to say this is not how I would handle such a situation, and I think the guy actually put your kids in danger, and bullied your dog.  I never force a dog to sit and endure attention from kids that the dog clearly doesn't want.  My strategy takes longer, but no children are forced on the dog before he's ready.  That has ended up with more punctures in kids than you realize.  Not saying that your dog would do that, but many have, and it's never worth taking short cuts to have that happen, because dogs that bite kids end up dead.  All your trainer did was suppress behavior temporarily - he didn't change the dog's opinion of your kids one iota.  The dog was clearly uncomfortable, and would have left the scene unless you were there to force him back with the leash.  My goal is always to have the dog *decide* to stay because he actually changes his emotional response to their presence.  Unfortunately, this type of "training" happens a lot - your dog is very new in your household and might actually acclimate quite well to your own children eventually all on his own, so long as they represent good things, and don't foist themselves on him when he's frightened.  My biggest concern would be when your kids have friends over, that each experience not be handled in this way until the dog is terrified of every child he meets because he keeps getting dragged back when he tries to put a little distance between...

spiritdogs

 What do you recommend my daughter should do if he repeats this behavior?

I recommend that she not stare at him, that she turns her body a little to the side and that she tosses a treat on the floor to him and then backs away so he can have it.  He needs to learn that she is a provider of his resources, just as you are, and that she is cool.  Kids with dog biscuits are way more cool than kids who stare and reach for dogs that fear them.

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Thanks.

I don't think my daughter was staring at him (or maybe she was at first) but now I will check and make sure of that.  Also, as for treats, I have taught my kids to throw the treats but as soon as they throw Jeter runs away!!! But occasionally, after he runs away, he comes back, sniffs the treat, and then eats it! Once again, he is MUCH, MUCH better with my son, its only with my daughters!!

By the way, did I mention he continued barking at my daughter till my wife sat next to my daughter.  That made him stop!!

As for the trainer, though obviously I don't know anything, I did tell my wife that I felt this is not the right way!! That is why I felt I should post it even though deep don I knew what the reply will be.

I will take your advice and will continue my search for a good behaviorist!

esabet

As for the trainer, though obviously I don't know anything, I did tell my wife that I felt this is not the right way!! That is why I felt I should post it even though deep don I knew what the reply will be.

I will take your advice and will continue my search for a good behaviorist!

I put your words in bold because I wanted to comment that you know more than you think.  You recognized that you had a problem and sought advice.  You also recognized that the trainer's advice made you feel uncomfortable and that's more than many people grasp.  It's wise to trust your instincts, as you have done.

The dog may be reacting to the kids throwing the treats because the kids might be a tad too energetic when tossing the treats.  Make sure they don't throw the treats toward the dog.  Tell them to just drop them on the floor at arms distance from their bodies.

Sometimes, a human makes only momentary eye contact that the dog thinks is threatening.  Chaotic movements will scare a fearful dog, so the kids need to be counseled to toss lightly when using that strategy, as Jackie said.  But, if he's still too nervous, they can simply walk by, drop a treat and he can go get it.  It is good news that he felt safe enough, right afterward, to go and pick up his treat.  One thing that I have done with scaredy dogs is to create a "cheese trail" that leads from about ten-twenty feet away to the person the dog is scared of.  I use Kraft cheese from the can.  So, there are just "dots" of cheese on the floor.  The person is instructed to sit on the floor, not make eye contact, and not to move AT ALL, and to just let the dog come as close as he wants, taking tidbits all the way.  That sometimes gets the dog close enough so that he will *sniff* the human, which is a big step toward convincing the dog that the human is ok.  Unfortunately, many humans can't resist the temptation to move, and that will scare the dog, which is not the goal.

esabet

Once again, he is MUCH, MUCH better with my son, its only with my daughters!!

There could easily have been a negative encounter with a little girl prior to you getting him.  My Billy was TERRIFIED of little blond girls when he came to us.  He LOVED boys ... and little girls would turn him into a snarling terrified monster.(we saw him WITH a child when we met him -- and it never occurred to me he would be so gender specific!!!). 

However -- in addition -- as a Dad you already **know** girls are different than boys.  They SOUND different.  Little girls twitter and giggle and SQUEAL.  This can sound like puppies yipping to a pup -- and maybe it feels like an "alpha" female thing -- and that scares him.

Little girls tend to do everything in ****ITALICS**** -- they squeal louder, jump higher, get MORE excited -- and the only thing worse than one little exicted girl is ... TWO. 

And if the first experiences with your girls were scarey for the dog then you've got some desensitizing to do.  Part of it is personality -- part of it really just is the whole "girly" squealy thing. 

BUT IT ***CAN*** be de-sensitized.

Billy's easily problem with little girls was really severe -- he had badly infected ears when we got him and some little 3-5 year old she-witch apparently wanted to PLAY with those big soft pendulous ear flaps of his -- which were VERY sore.

But we simply continued to create opportunities with little girls, YUMMY FOOD, and low key situations.  You'll get there -- it will just take a bit of time.

 I agree with Callie, but it isn't necessarily that a little girl did anything wrong to him.  It's quite possible that he encountered little boys during puppy hood, and did not encounter little girls.  Example: my dog, Sequoyah.  Her breeder had two little girls.  Even though I picked her up at age 10 weeks, she has always loved little girls.  Not that she is bad with boys, she likes kids in general.  But, little girls are her fave to this day.

Well what I am about to add may shed some light on the matter.

Before I say this let me add that the two times we went to the breeder's house Jeter showed absolutly no reaction whatsoever to my daughters! In fact he woud even take treats from them.

My son and my 8 yr. old daughter had their friends over today. Both came at the same time.

When my son's frieds came over Jeter approached them with caution and sniffed them, but did not let them to pet him.

But when my daughter's friend came (whom has long hair like my daughter and almost same physique) he barked at her and would not get close to her!!

It almost looks like he does have something against girls!!!

And it could further be that he took treats from the girls at the breeder's **because** she was there so he felt "safe". 

IN addition to everything else -- "low key" is the way to go, but I would also put the girls in charge of all things "good" -- they give him food - i.e., set down his bowl, let the girls let him out (even if someone else has to leash him, let the girls go for walks.  Even if they simply drop treats and 'ignore' him as they walk. 

If he plays let them throw a ball.  Soon he will find females aren't bad. 

He may truly have had a bad experience with a girl or somehow picked up on cues from the breeder.  But somewhere he's learned a preference and you'll probably have to play a little dirty (i.e., seriously stacking the deck against him -- let the girls give him ALL the good stuff, throw balls (be quiet but throw them).  Get to know what his super high values treats are and let the girls be the ones to give it to him.

And yep - you'll have to enlist the help of "friends" too -- shoot, at one point with Billy I had en entire Brownie troop helping us!!

Keep all sessions "short" -- never ever long.  And caution the girls not to 'expect' anything. 

The make the strangest associations sometimes.  And you know -- it could **BE** long hair.  What happens if the girls put their hair up or put on a baseball cap with the hair tucked up?

The make the strangest associations sometimes.

You hit the nail on the head there, Callie.  And, that's one reason why people often look at trainers as though we have two heads.  The most common example I can think of is the person who scolds their dog for having an accident in the house.  They think the dog should "get" that it's bad to pee in the house.  But, instead, the dog makes the association that it's bad to pee in front of the human.  So, then the person cannot figure out why the dog will not pee outside (leashed to that scary human) and comes in and immediately pees in the next room.

calliecritturs

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IN addition to everything else -- "low key" is the way to go, but I would also put the girls in charge of all things "good" -- they give him food - i.e., set down his bowl, let the girls let him out (even if someone else has to leash him, let the girls go for walks.  Even if they simply drop treats and 'ignore' him as they walk.

Well we have been trying these things.  Yesterday, while Jeter was in his area (the mud room) I asked my daughter to go inside, fill up his food cup and place it inside his crate so he sees who is feeding him.  Well that kind of backfired as while my daughter was filling up the cup of food Jeter peed in a corner; my guess is out of fear!!

 

If he plays let them throw a ball.  Soon he will find females aren't bad. 

That is the other problem, he does not have a favorite toy.  In fact, as I mentioned in my thread,  he does not play with ANY toys!! We have tried many toys and nothing so far!! I have contacted the breeder about this and she claims he did in fact play with toys at her place.

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They make the strangest associations sometimes.  And you know -- it could **BE** long hair.  What happens if the girls put their hair up or put on a baseball cap with the hair tucked up?

I tested this theory out last night as I thought it was very clever.  I asked my daughter to dress up as a boy, put up her hair and put a cap on and then come into the Den.  At first Jeter did not run away as he did not recognize her. Then I gave my daughter a piece of chicken as Jeter thinks of it as a high rewarding treat!  Jeter got close and sniffed it and then ran away as if he recognized who she really was!!

So it almost worked, but no cigar!

esabet

I asked my daughter to go inside, fill up his food cup and place it inside his crate so he sees who is feeding him.  Well that kind of backfired as while my daughter was filling up the cup of food Jeter peed in a corner; my guess is out of fear!!

Yes, this was way too close for Jeter's comfort.  The kids need to completely ignore Jeter and not attempt to feed him directly at this point even a treat.  Tell them to hold a treat at arms length, not looking at the dog or speaking, and drop it on the floor.  Trying to rush the process, though with every good intention, will most likely result in setbacks, rather than progress.

It's doesn't really matter why he is more fearful of girls versus boys. You will probably never know the reason.  Unlike humans, who we can psychoanalyze, with dogs we just deal with what we have.  The reasons for the fear are not going to change how we overcome them.  It's interesting to speculate but not helpful usually, other than for out own curiousity.  There are exceptions, of course, but in this case I don't think it's relavant. Just my opinion.

I have another important question on the side!

Jeter has NOT been neutered yet and we must do that.  I have not seen him do any "marking" behavior yet and I was told he should be neutered before he learns that!

But given with all that is going on, I am not sure when would be a good time?  Any recommendations?

JackieG

The kids need to completely ignore Jeter and not attempt to feed him directly at this point even a treat.  Tell them to hold a treat at arms length, not looking at the dog or speaking, and drop it on the floor.  Trying to rush the process, though with every good intention, will most likely result in setbacks, rather than progress.

This is very good advice.  Having dealt with a former puppymill survivor that was extremly fearful of men, my husband and I tried to fix this fear too soon for her comfort, and all we did was to make her more fearful of him. We tried to make him the giver of all good things (food, treats, toys) right away, but she would just run away and hide.  We took a step back, and had him ignore her, but to be at her level on the floor, during times that he was home (he would lay on the floor when he was in a room with her).  Soon enough, she got used to his presence, then he added a squeaky toy to the mix--he would randomly squeak the toy as he was laying in the room----she would get curious, come and see--and get the toy. He also did this with treats---squeak the toy, she would come see, and he had a treat laying near him----he did not hand her the treat, it was just there for her to take---this progressed to her taking the treat from his hand--then to actually playing with the toy while he held onto it--which progressed into fetch, and so on.  Also when he walked into a room that she was already in, he would casually drop a a trail of treats, without ever acknowledging her presance---she eventually began following him.

Mind you this process took months---approximately 6-7---before she was perfectly comfortable with him---he was then able to take her on walks, play freely with her---she acted just like a "normal" dog.  It just takes time and LOTS of patience.  It can be very frustrating, but the reward is great in the end. 

esabet

We have tried many toys and nothing so far!! I have contacted the breeder about this and she claims he did in fact play with toys at her place.

My Pirate, when he came home from the shelter, didn't touch toys for, I'd say, 6 months. DID NOT TOUCH. No interest, nothing, nada. Give it time.

esabet

Jeter has NOT been neutered yet and we must do that.  I have not seen him do any "marking" behavior yet and I was told he should be neutered before he learns that!