Desperate Help with our new 10 month old Bichon Frise PLEASE!

Hello again everyone.

I have some updates that thought I should share with you all:

• Jeter is doing better with my son! Still cautious but warms up to him much faster and my wife says when I am not around Jeter actually follows his commands.
• As for my Daughters, Jeter is getting maybe an inch or two closer than before but yesterday, once again, he started barking at my older daughter.
• Jeter has become more playful now!  In fact, for the first time, I found him playing by himself!   Also, it is the strangest thing for me that he does not find his toys interesting! But he likes things like empty water bottles (actually he had ton of fun with that yesterday) tree branches, and socks, so far!
• He is also now beginning to sleep and lie down on his beds more and more often!
• We are signing him up for Puppy Kindergarten as the breeder thinks it should help him to socialize and become more secure. The trainer that is holding the Puppy classes, after having heard what is going on, recommended that I buy the Happy Kids, Happy Dogs book and reading it!
• Jeter is scheduled to be neutered tomorrow (Thursday)
• As for his housebreaking, we have been on an accident free streak BUT this morning he had soiled his "crate"!!! I did not say or punish him in any way but am wondering why he would have done that given that I walked him the night before, right before bed, and he did make!!!

Thanks for participating and helping out!

Is his crate in someone's room?  Like any living thing sometimes "urgent" just becomes too urgent and they gotta go.  AND he's young -- I've had lots of dogs that still needed the occasional 'out' during the night even then.  If he's in someone's room then they may hear him and can take him out *before* he soils (and dogs ARE den animals -- they need that "pack" feeling during the night -- that "sleep smell" is very calming to them).

If he's crated during the day, you want to get him out of the crate at night as soon as possible.  It's always a good thing to have someone responsible for hearing the dog's discomfort and helping get them outside during the night if they gotta go.

Sounds like you are on the right track -- it can take MONTHS for a dog to fully settle in.  You will be at least 6 months truly seeing this dog's full personality == that is just typical of any adoption.

 It's good that he's becoming more secure in his new surroundings, and I'm thrilled that you are taking classes. I think that book is good, but I also like Coleen Pelar's book "Living With Kids and Dogs Without Losing Your Mind" and Pia Sylvani & Linda Eckhardt's "Raising Puppies and Kids Together".  These people are fabulous positive trainers who really get it.

calliecritturs

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Sounds like you are on the right track -- it can take MONTHS for a dog to fully settle in.  You will be at least 6 months truly seeing this dog's full personality == that is just typical of any adoption.

Adopted? Not really!  If he was adopted then I could more or less understand that he may have had a rough past! But we bought it from a breeder, believing that she is 100% genuine and reputable, which to date I still believe she is a very good breeder and 100% genuine, but maybe doubts are slowly sinking in!

I understand that it may take MONTHS but I don't think my 8 year old daughter, who is the sweetest and gentlest soul on earth, going to understand why a puppy is fearful of her!! Do you see what I mean?

spiritdogs

 It's good that he's becoming more secure in his new surroundings, and I'm thrilled that you are taking classes. I think that book is good, but I also like Coleen Pelar's book "Living With Kids and Dogs Without Losing Your Mind" and Pia Sylvani & Linda Eckhardt's "Raising Puppies and Kids Together".  These people are fabulous positive trainers who really get it.

I am certain there are many good publications and if possible I will try to read them all.  The funiest thing is that I did not do so much research or read books when it came to my own kids!! LOL

esabet

Teh funiest thing is that I did not do so much reasch or read books when it came to my own kids!! LOL

 

LOl  When it's a completely different species it makes a world of difference.

edited my typo

By the way, I spoke with the Dog Behaviorist Parvene Farhoody today.  Though she had said before she does not have time for us, after she heard about the issues, in particular that Jeter is insecure, not playful and fearful of my daughters, she was kind enough to call me on the phone and share her professional opinion.

The very first recommendation that she had was NOT TO NEUTER him - at least not for the next three months.  She thought, given his status, its going to make things worst and perhaps the testosterone is what he needs to get over his fears.  And by neutering him he may become even more fearful!!

She also said that it is very possible that Jeter may siomple not have the temperament for our household and we should strongly consider taking him back to the breeder!! That perhaps Jeter is more suited for an elderly couple or a signle individual!

She felt that if after three weeks the dog is still afraid of my daughters and refuses to even take treats from them then, even though he may eventually warm up to them, he may turn out to be a dog that when my kids friends come over, he would have to be lucked up!! ANd, furthermore, it may also turn out that he will never be the playful dog we are expecting! And that kind of disappointment can hurt him and the kids!!

To say the least I was very upset to hear the recommendation and it is truly tearing me apart to even consider such notion.  I had brushed on the idea before in the house and my son was going to have a fit though my 8 year old daughter said she woudl have to think about it and my 3 year old said yes!  My wife was against it!

To summarize, I am now VERY VERY confused!!!

esabet

ANd, furthermore, it may also turn out that he will never be the playful dog we are expecting! And that kind of disappointment can hurt him and the kids!!

 

That's very possible.  If I had purchased a dog from a breeder with certain expectations and found that, through no fault of my own, the dog could never fill the role I had planned, I would certainly consider returning it to the breeder.  Try and picture how you and your family will feel IF six months from now the dog is still not what you had hoped for (despite your efforts) in a family pet.  Not everyone is in a position to deal with dogs like this and though you may have great love and good intentions toward the dog, sometimes that's not enough to overcome some problems.  I'm not saying that this is such a case because there isn't any way anyone can give an accurate assessment without seeing the dog and meeting your family.  It's a tough position and I do feel for you.

 

esabet

By the way, I spoke with the Dog Behaviorist Parvene Farhoody today.  Though she had said before she does not have time for us, after she heard about the issues, in particular that Jeter is insecure, not playful and fearful of my daughters, she was kind enough to call me on the phone and share her professional opinion.

The very first recommendation that she had was NOT TO NEUTER him - at least not for the next three months.  She thought, given his status, its going to make things worst and perhaps the testosterone is what he needs to get over his fears.  And by neutering him he may become even more fearful!!

She also said that it is very possible that Jeter may siomple not have the temperament for our household and we should strongly consider taking him back to the breeder!! That perhaps Jeter is more suited for an elderly couple or a signle individual!

She felt that if after three weeks the dog is still afraid of my daughters and refuses to even take treats from them then, even though he may eventually warm up to them, he may turn out to be a dog that when my kids friends come over, he would have to be lucked up!! ANd, furthermore, it may also turn out that he will never be the playful dog we are expecting! And that kind of disappointment can hurt him and the kids!!

To say the least I was very upset to hear the recommendation and it is truly tearing me apart to even consider such notion.  I had brushed on the idea before in the house and my son was going to have a fit though my 8 year old daughter said she woudl have to think about it and my 3 year old said yes!  My wife was against it!

To summarize, I am now VERY VERY confused!!!

I think that Parvene was stating what some of us know to be the truth, and that is that, while you can often make things better, you may not be able to make them perfect, or even close to perfect.  I know that you are probably attached to this little dog, and want the best for him, but you also don't want him to live in a constant state of stress or fear.  I would at least have a conversation with the breeder about it, perhaps after you actually meet with the person from Divine.

esabet

calliecritturs

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Sounds like you are on the right track -- it can take MONTHS for a dog to fully settle in.  You will be at least 6 months truly seeing this dog's full personality == that is just typical of any adoption.

Adopted? Not really!  If he was adopted then I could more or less understand that he may have had a rough past! But we bought it from a breeder, believing that she is 100% genuine and reputable, which to date I still believe she is a very good breeder and 100% genuine, but maybe doubts are slowly sinking in!

 

 

Paying money for a dog doesn't make it any different. You still took the dog out of the only home it knew, and put it in a completely new environment. It takes TIME, period. 

jennie_c_d

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Paying money for a dog doesn't make it any different. You still took the dog out of the only home it knew, and put it in a completely new environment. It takes TIME, period. 

 

I undersyand 100%!!  But I wish the behaviorist had said "it will take time"! But instead you could almost hear her say "there is no hope"!

Here are couple of other experitments/observations we had: This morning, while my daughters were sleep, my wife took Jeter to my daughters bedroom. Jeter was ok till he simply sniffed my daughters hand and then he ran out of the room as fast as he could! So it makes me wonder if this is ever going to be fixed? The scent alone frightened him! Does that make sense?

Also, Jeter will go into "all" the bedrooms EXCEPT my daughters' bedroom!!!

jennie_c_d

Paying money for a dog doesn't make it any different. You still took the dog out of the only home it knew, and put it in a completely new environment. It takes TIME, period. 

I have been reading this thread and don't really have much to add to it...you are among good hands with answers here....except for this statement that I would like to comment on.

It took over a year to get my Dane Bubblegum to develop into the personality she ended with at my house.  She was older...in fact three...and you have a puppy still so that might make a difference....but  your puppy is an older puppy...not like the 10 week old we sometimes get.   Bubby didn't have a great life at her breeders house.....they told me she was able to mingle with the other dogs...but really...she spent most of her life crated...the breeder let one dog out while the others were locked up.......and they spent most of their time in a crate or out in the fenced yard....... when she came to live with us......she was afraid. Even at the end of her life she was afraid of most men.   But she came a long long way in the first year...it was with baby steps though.  And in the end....she was my heart BUT she was not the dog I expected or wanted.  I wonder how many dogs are EXACTLY what we wanted when we got them!!

In the interim we need help with one more thing:

We put Jeter in his crate somewhere between 10:30 to 11:30 PM!  Then Jeter wakes up around 4:30 to 5:00 AM and starts making lots of noise, scrapping the crate, and barking to get out!  He may stop after 30 minutes of being ignored but then will start all over at about 6:00 am. What is the best way to train him so that he waits and does not bark till  we get him out (some time between  6:30 to 7:00 am)?

 

esabet

Here are couple of other experitments/observations we had: This morning, while my daughters were sleep, my wife took Jeter to my daughters bedroom. Jeter was ok till he simply sniffed my daughters hand and then he ran out of the room as fast as he could! So it makes me wonder if this is ever going to be fixed? The scent alone frightened him! Does that make sense?

Also, Jeter will go into "all" the bedrooms EXCEPT my daughters' bedroom!!!

No – that might actually make me think of a couple of different things!! That’s a clue!

I would look at things like whether your daughter uses a particular brand of soap, lotion, perfume **OR MAYBE shampoo!!** – scents, to a dog, provoke STRONG memories and if Jeter did have a bad experience it may have been with a female (probably with long hair given what you’ve said before). But if your daughter had just run her fingers thru her hair – or heck – it could have been something she played with.  But it's either a scent of a soap she uses, maybe a perfume, or scented powder -- it's likely got a bad memory associated with it -- and it may be a typical "popular girl thing" (going by his reaction to her friends??).

Scent to a dog is HUGE. Because it tells them so much more than just how something "smells". From scent a dog senses emotion, he senses everything from what you’ve eaten to how confident you are. And scent *memory* to a dog is GI-NORMOUS.

Simply keep whacking away – but things like this aren’t signals that nothing will ever be right. In fact, they are clues to this dog’s history.

TRUE STORY: -- several years ago my husband and I adopted a little handicapped dog. She’d been taken by animal control from a guy who had beaten her so severely with a broom he broke her back. (yeah, I’m serious). They were trying to nail the guy for domestic violence and wanted the dog placed and out of the way so it didn’t get mixed up in the felony charges. So we took her.

She couldn’t walk. She was only 4 1/2 months old and I carried her everywhere.

She blossomed with us – she had been very fearful (no wonder) but grew to LOVE everything from car rides to rides in her wagon. But we noticed occasionally – even in our own living room – she would suddenly just freak out and get TERRIFIED ... literally cowering and shaking for a period of time. No reason why.

Then one day we were in the car and she was riding in my lap (passenger side). Suddenly her eyes got ENORMOUS and she started to shake and cry and she looked out of the window like the Hounds of H#LL were after her. We were on the Interstate and the only thing next to us was a late model Durango.

I told my husband to speed up and ditch the Durango if he could and he did. She settled right back down in my arms. However – a while later ANOTHER Durango approached us on the other side – again, same reaction but she looked RIGHT at that SUV in terror.

As we talked about it – suddenly things made sense. We have a neighbor who has ... YEP ... a Durango! But they live "down" the street and rarely drive by my house. But occasionally they do – go ‘up’ the street somewhere and drive by. THAT was what she was hearing.

The abuser drove a Durango. I actually called Animal Control to find out. What did she hear or smell? The whine of a particular model of engine? Smell? Something! But she knew a Durango when she heard it – boy did she ever. It would wake her out of a sound sleep.

Think bout that – crowded highway full of gas fumes in a car with the windows up and air conditioner on. But she KNEW when one approached. AND she knew from which direction as well.

That’s merely an example – dogs can be amazingly perceptive – and if you guys can isolate the scent that may be triggering Jeters unease it may help you to de-sensitize this. But specifically now that you know scent IS involved you can have your daughter drop treats ... then go wash her hands and drop treats AGAIN. Then rub her hands with YOURS and have her drop treats again.

It will help desensitize this. And it will help the dog identify the scents with better things.

I"m going to bet it has something to do with long hair as well (shampoo would be an easy one -- and I'd find out if her friend uses the same shampoo -- little girls are LIKE that -- heck so are we women!!) -- but long hair flinging out ... that would definitely be a scent catch for a dog!!

esabet

I undersyand 100%!!  But I wish the behaviorist had said "it will take time"! But instead you could almost hear her say "there is no hope"!

Well, what she was probably inferring is that he missed the valuable social experiences that would have prevented this in the first place.  Many breeders take time to socialize their puppies because they know there's a chance they will someday get them back (for the lurkers...reputable breeders generally put it right into the contract you sign that the dog must be returned if you are ever unable to care for it.  Good breeders don't want their pups ending up in shelters.)  Hopeless is a bit strong, although not being privy to the conversation, I cannot say for sure.  In any case, working with problem dogs is costly, time consuming, and often heartbreaking.  I have a student who just adopted a dog in worse shape than yours, and yet she is happy with every little smidgen of progress and not at all concerned even if he remains painfully shy.  He's great with her at home, and she realizes he isn't going to be the dog park Casanova.  On the other hand, I did a consultation on a dog that the adopters elected to return to the shelter.  I was able to coax him out from under the chairs at my training center, but it took me 45 minutes and some extra special stinky real meat and cheese.  They had wanted a jogging companion!  The good news is that, while they didn't keep him, a new family did give him a chance - they had a lifestyle conducive to his needs, and they love him to death and don't force him in to situations he can't handle.  I think you have to ask yourself if your lifestyle can accommodate the work he needs, and if you can handle your kids' disappointment in a companion that isn't that in to them.  Afterthought...did your breeder have you and your kids over to meet the dog before you bought him?