Halti and Gentle Leader

We just got a waist leash for the puller. She's a puppy, and while she's not my responsibility, I'm not comfortable with equipment on a puppy. The waist belt though makes it easier to stop and wait for her not to pull though, without having your arm torn out.

With Nikon I taught him to "yield to the leash" rather than to heel.  Since he's a bigger dog with a long stride there's really no reason in training him to heel right along side me b/c he doesn't enjoy himself and we end up getting tripped up (his competition heeling is a routine, not something practical).  He can be out front of me and have the whole leash whether it's 4' or 10' as long as he yields to any pressure (not a correction) or my voice.  If he's several feet ahead of me I can get his attention with a "psst" and then ask him to sit, wait, go this way, go that way.

I know what you mean about the prong debate.  For me it is *not* a self-correcting device.  To me that constitutes nagging and seems unnecessarily uncomfortable for the dog, allowing them to constantly pull into it or check themselves without any feedback one way or the other on what the handler actually wants.  

miranadobe

True, except that the use of prongs to administer a correction is to teach the dog something about his position relative to the handler - with or without the tool on.  Head halters don't.  (Here's where we get into differences on how a prong should be worn/administered - ie, pulling into it, or used to actually give a correction.  So, it's a debatable point.)  The head halter just seems like a leverage device to get the dog's attention while you actually train a correct heel.  But a good portion of dog owners who implement them just clip them on and think, LO!  Problem solved!  With nothing further needing to be "taught" about heel position.  Meanwhile, the dog has not learned heel position except in the context of the head halter.

Ah, but in reality the prong collar only teaches the correct position while the collar is on. It's a very discriminative learning process (if it is a learning process, depending on how it is used) - in the vast majority of dogs it does not generalize in any manner. When the prong collar comes off, the old behaviours resume. So in that effect - actual long-term behaviour change, I don't think they are all that different at all, except for the design in how they work.

Kim_MacMillan

When the prong collar comes off, the old behaviours resume.

I haven't seen that, unless the owner resumes leash handling the way he/she did before the prong.  (Sloppy, nagging tugs, etc)  I have actually seen almost the exact opposite happen - Ever seen a dog drop when the handler's left leg raises too fast/high even when no equipment is on the dog? Likely the dog was conditioned to expect a leash correction for a down.  (Dogs really are such body language experts, aren't they?)  It's really in how you condition the dog, it seems.

Anyway, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to drag this off to prong-land. lol  But, yes, I get the picture you're trying to convey, but in the absence of effective training for heel, I see Equipment Comes Off = Dog Resumes Unwanted Behavior faaaaar more commonly with head halters.  Maybe it's because of the dramatic difference that a head halter makes versus a flat collar or slip - the pulling isn't managed nearly as well with those on versus the head halter.  So taking the slip collar off doesn't provide the same dramatic difference in behavior as I've seen with head halters.

I taught Nikon's down out of motion with negative reinforcement using a prong collar.  He had it after three tries and I can't remember the last time he's done with a prong (or not done it without the prong).  We did mock BH's on Sunday and this exercise is entirely off lead.

 Yep, that's exactly what I'm talking about, Liesje!

Kim_MacMillan

miranadobe

I hate head halters, myself, even though I understand why some people use them temporarily.  It's the folks that use them for every walk that drive me nutso.

I'll play devil's advocate here and say that it's no different than folks who use prong collars for every walk, slip collars for every walk, or even no-pull harnesses for every walk. They all act to change the dog's behaviour when the dog is wearing it.  They are all "tools", as compared to a normal body harness, martingale, or a flat collar.

I agree with Kim and have found that head collars often work very well for dogs that seem to ignore other management tools.  The key to success with head collars, though, is to acclimate the dog to one properly - take your time, and do it correctly and you'll likely have less trouble.  There's a video that you can get to show you how, or see this link:

http://www.doglogic.com/halter.htm

Thank you guys so much for the excellent feedback, on everything. I have a lot to think over and more pros and cons to weigh (for instance she DOES lunge at moving leaves; it's a MAJOR training roadblock we have - seriously, she sees a moving leaf and the entire world fades to just her desire to pounce/attack it. I can call her off people and other dogs easier than a moving leaf!).

I'm definitely going to try that leash "trick" first, since I already have the tools at my disposal. THANK you for the diagram and video. I really appreciate that, and it's most helpful. 

The sporn halter looks interesting and is now something I'm seriously considering, if the leash method doesn't work. It looks safer than the halti or GL if she were to lunge at the moving leaves. The waist leash is interesting, but unsafe for us, even if it would save my shoulders and arms some grief. Ari may be 58-59 lbs and I'm more than 3X her weight, but she could easily pull me off my feet and drag me. I'm not sure where she's hiding her muscles, but dang it if she isn't one strong dog!

Ari and I both thank everyone. We're BOTH looking forward to enjoying longer walks together, without the frustration and likely mixed signals. 

the_gopher

However, my shoulder is killing me and if she gets it into her mind to pull, I don't have the strength to hold her back

As i have always said, your dont really need any special tool, leash or harness. I've been able to have any puller to walk next to me in a relaxed manner in less than 10 minutes. No corrections/food needed. It's all about the technique, what do you do before and during the walk.

A technique similar to how show dogs walk around the ring. It's so easy that some people in this forum dont even think it's true but no dog has lasted more than 10 minutes pulling.

After 10 minutes i'm holding the leash with only 2 fingers and the dog walking next to me. I've done this with dozens of dogs.

 If you were around to demonstrate, I would be interested in learning. However, we've done formal training and at this point - I need something else. Ari will not work for nothing and if she sees something more interesting than me (which is just about everything else outside lol), you can see it in her eyes that the world is dropping away until there is only the object of her desire. Ari needs to see what's in it for her, always, and it needs to be something really really good and preferably fun. I don't blame her one bit, as I don't expect her to do something I want without her seeing the immediate benefit for her! The problem we've run into is finding something that is better than simply being outside. I don't doubt you've had great success with your methods, but knowing Ari the way I do, it's one of those things I'd need to see.

I did try that leash trick, but it didn't really work for us unfortunately, not safely anyway (lunging at leaves!). I think I'm going to try that sporn halter. It seems much safer than anything going around her head.

Evil evil leaves. Silly silly Ari. 

 You've tried a prong, right?  What about that did not work?  Were you correcting or just letting her pull into it?

 I used corrections with both a prong and regular choke chain. Short, quick jerk on the leash while using a verbal command, and using treats as well to reinforce what I did want (along with a quiet verbal praise, if I get to excited in my voice, she gets very excited).

the_gopher

 I used corrections with both a prong and regular choke chain. Short, quick jerk on the leash while using a verbal command, and using treats as well to reinforce what I did want (along with a quiet verbal praise, if I get to excited in my voice, she gets very excited).

If you have an excitable, reactive dog, then a prong, or adevice that causes pain, whether you are issuing a correction (which you shouldn't be) or not, is not the right equipment.  Nor are prongs suitable for use on aggressive dogs.   My guess is that you will like the sporn once you try it.  You don't get the same leverage as you do with a GL or an Easy Walk, but if your dog is a sudden lunger, I think it might be a good choice for you.  You can also add a bungee leash if you have a difficult time. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfiNFtembDA

the_gopher

 I used corrections with both a prong and regular choke chain. Short, quick jerk on the leash while using a verbal command, and using treats as well to reinforce what I did want (along with a quiet verbal praise, if I get to excited in my voice, she gets very excited).

Based on your descriptions of the dog (not just in this thread, but since you've had her), the prong seems like an appropriate tool, the question is at what expense.  If it's not working, the corrections are not hard enough (less corrections that make the point very clear, rather than constant jerks either by the dog or the handler).  But, no one here knows the dog well enough to know how much is necessary, whether it has any effect on your relationship, whether the dog recovers and understands the point being made, etc.  Generally the dogs are not shutting down because of the tool, but because the corrections are not clear, the timing is off, they are too harsh or too naggy, etc.  It's a useful tool for some dogs but not a quick fix.

the_gopher

she gets very excited

And thats the whole issue with all the pullers: excitement

You dont even have to use commands or training, it's all on lowering the excitement before you even grab the leash at home. Every time you do something while the dog is excited (ie, putting the leash on, opening the door and even walking) you are rewarding the behavior/reinforcing the issue that you are actually trying to get rid of.