Halti and Gentle Leader

Liesje

the_gopher

 I used corrections with both a prong and regular choke chain. Short, quick jerk on the leash while using a verbal command, and using treats as well to reinforce what I did want (along with a quiet verbal praise, if I get to excited in my voice, she gets very excited).

 

Based on your descriptions of the dog (not just in this thread, but since you've had her), the prong seems like an appropriate tool, the question is at what expense.  If it's not working, the corrections are not hard enough (less corrections that make the point very clear, rather than constant jerks either by the dog or the handler).  But, no one here knows the dog well enough to know how much is necessary, whether it has any effect on your relationship, whether the dog recovers and understands the point being made, etc.  Generally the dogs are not shutting down because of the tool, but because the corrections are not clear, the timing is off, they are too harsh or too naggy, etc.  It's a useful tool for some dogs but not a quick fix.

 

You cannot make a generalization that the tool is not the problem.  If you have a pain sensitive dog, or an anxious dog, a prong can shut them down in a New York minute, whether it's timed well or not.  Basically, those dogs do better with some form of hands off training.  Our OP is already stating that the method used is not working, so why justify it?  Rather, it might be time to actually try something like clicker training, which does not require a battle at all.  I do my leash walking training inside a fenced area, so that I don't even use a leash to teach my dog to stay with me.  While outside the fenced area, I use a no pull harness or a head collar, and I do NOT go with my dog if it pulls.  I stand my ground until the dog decides to slacken the leash, then we proceed.  Or, I simply change the direction I'm going in and reward the dog every time it catches up to my left leg.  The basic reason that dogs pull is that we go with them when they do.  Thus, they are rewarded for pulling.  If you can't find a way to stop yourself from doing that, you'll always have a dog that pulls...

spiritdogs

those dogs do better with some form of hands off training

 In all honesty, an ecollar works well for this.  Takes the "fight" out of it, takes the "dislocated shoulder" out of it, takes the "hands off the dog", and makes them accountable for their behavior rather than waiting for her instinct to want to chase or aggress after another dog or leaf to diminish.  Because, really, that's what you're waiting for when you stop and wait for slack in the leash.  Anyway, I don't feel like debating ecollars for the umpteenth time, so don't expect a response from me in this thread if you want to debate.  The public caveat I will put here is nobody should buy one at a store and try to follow a video to train their dog with it.  Only use an ecollar at the direction of an effective trainer who has extensive experience with many tools, so the trainer can identify if the ecollar is for you, or if some other tools and/or methods should be used.

 

But a good portion of dog owners who implement them just clip them on and think, LO!  Problem solved!

And, for them it is!  If someone simply wants their pet to stop pulling them around, that solution works for them.  A reinforcement, in this case, is all about what they want, not what you think they should want (same as dogs who really prefer a roast beef bit to a pat on the head).  Many of the people I see don't give a rat's butt to teach their dogs to heel.  They're too busy with work, kids' soccer games, caring for their elderly aunts, or any of the myriad of things that get in the way of caring about dog training being the number one priority.  Guess what?  They still love their dogs, many of them feed nothing but the best, take them to the best groomer in town, and mourn them when they die. 

For me, it's about the relationship that people want with their dogs.  And, if they are walking their dogs on GL's forever, I have no problem with it.  That's better than having their arms pulled and not liking their walks with their best friends.  And, most of my clients don't want to inflict pain on their dogs, which is why they were wrapping the stupid leash around their wrists five times, rather than buy a prong, before they even got to me.  So, what works for them is fine, IMO, so long as the dog remains safe.

miranadobe

spiritdogs

those dogs do better with some form of hands off training

 In all honesty, an ecollar works well for this.  Takes the "fight" out of it, takes the "dislocated shoulder" out of it, takes the "hands off the dog", and makes them accountable for their behavior rather than waiting for her instinct to want to chase or aggress after another dog or leaf to diminish.  Because, really, that's what you're waiting for when you stop and wait for slack in the leash.  Anyway, I don't feel like debating ecollars for the umpteenth time, so don't expect a response from me in this thread if you want to debate.  The public caveat I will put here is nobody should buy one at a store and try to follow a video to train their dog with it.  Only use an ecollar at the direction of an effective trainer who has extensive experience with many tools, so the trainer can identify if the ecollar is for you, or if some other tools and/or methods should be used.

 

I would say only use an e-collar if you don't mind shocking your dog.  And, I'm not interested in debating you, either, just in calling a spade a spade. How come no one says "shock collar" any more?  After all, on low or high, that's still what it is, and all the euphemisms don't change that.  I think it's interesting that people feel that a piece of equipment such as a harness or head collar is soooo awful, yet they justify shocking a dog to inhibit its behavior. 

Some dogs would simply rather be shocked a few times so they understand what we want than be bridled into submission by a tool that requires training before training so the dog isn't giving off a million calming signals while it's being put on.  I got spanked a few times as a kid and was not scarred for life or harbor fear and anxiety towards my parents.  I do not like how my dog acts with a head halter on, and it has nothing to do with heeling or loose leash walking.  Also I don't have the patience for a "gentle" tool that requires desensitization.

spiritdogs

You cannot make a generalization that the tool is not the problem.  If you have a pain sensitive dog, or an anxious dog, a prong can shut them down in a New York minute, whether it's timed well or not.

 

No more than you can make a generalization about the dog being pain sensitive and anxious.  Admittedly, none of us really know the dog or the OP, but I've been reading posts about her dog since she got it, and if I had to bet money on it, I'd wager that the dog is not pain sensitive nor anxious about slight corrections (and I say slight because if they didn't help at all, they must not have been very hard).  If someone is going to use a prong they might as well use it correctly.  It's not a self-correcting device.  Using it that way, or just constantly nagging with it is just going to result in either no progress at all, or the dog becoming hopelessly confused and maybe get snarky with the owner because there's no real communication (positive or negative) about what the owner is trying to achieve and the dog loses trust in the owner.  Assuming, of course, that the dog is OK with a prong collar, I'd rather give two good pops and make the point (which would be followed by praise and reward once the dog got the idea and did the right behavior) than allow the dog to pull into the collar the entire time.

Every tool has the capacity to be misused.  I don't believe that every single time a tool doesn't work, it means it was the wrong tool.