At my wits end, need help

this is a very sad story.  i was sorry to read about baron.
 
my sister-in-law has a female rottie-great dane mix that she had VERY similar problems with.  this dog was 120 lbs and was still jumping and mouthing and they were getting very frustrated, just like you are.  worse, my sister-in-law is about 100 lbs and was no match for this dog physically.
 
then my brother made one simple change:  when entering or exiting the house, the dog was made to WAIT until the humans were done going through the door, and then only allowed through after invited.  i promise you, this is the ONLY thing he did, and he said they saw a 100% improvement in her behavior very quickly.  i didn't see anywhere you posted about trying this, but it's really worth a shot.
 
also, they have found that even raising a hand to her was VERY counter-productive.  instead, they have instituted "time-outs" as suggested by the other posters.  this works very well with my rambunctious dogs as well.  if we're playing ball and they stop following the rules, as in they don't "bring it" all the way, they are made to sit for at least 30 full seconds, which doesn't sound like long but if you clock it, it can feel like forever.  after the "regrouping break", they follow rules much better.
 
 
as for the pack, look up Wolfpack Saddlebags online.  this is a great website that someone here referred me to.

I believe he does get enough exercise, he spends a huge amount of time outside every day, and has plenty of room to run as fast as he can in long, straight lines.

I don't have much to add to the great advice you've gotten already, but I do think giving dogs "free roam" time is generally not sufficient to get them the exercise they need. Walks would be very beneficial, I think, once you are able to work together enough to do so safely.

It sounds like a very frustrating situation for you, but it does sound like your dog is just rambunctious and that you two are not communicating well with each other. I think with some patience and some new tricks up your sleeve (a lot of folks here seem to have had great results with clicker training - it couldn't hurt to try it out!) you and Max will be able to work your issues out. Don't lose hope!

Holy cow, it WORKED!!

I occasionally take about a 1.5-2 hour nap in the afternoon, to make up for not sleeping much at night, and anytime I have laid down in the past, Max has taken it upon himself (if he was inside) to turn it into playtime. He jumps up on the bed, nips at my arms/hands and barks repeatedly. It was about 15 degrees this afternoon, with a bit of a breeze, so he didn't want to stay out very long...I guess he got cold...I know I sure did!

Today, I went and laid down, he started his usual routine, barking, growling and nipping, so I got him off the bed, out of my room and closed the door. I could hear him whining outside the door, but I waited 3-4 minutes and let him back in. Same thing happened (bad behavior). So I got him down again, put him outside the room, closed the door, but this time I waited 9 or 10 minutes. I heard him lay down in the hallway, so I figured he was calm enough to allow him back in. Nope. He still wanted to play. Anyway, this happened a total of 5 times...on the 5th time, I left him outside the door for 20 minutes, even though he had laid down almost immediately upon being cast out of the room, he was still whining a bit for the first 3-4 minutes or so. When I let him in the 5th time, I laid down, he jumped up on the bed and laid down beside me and didn't make a single peep! I had been trying to get this behavior for MONTHS! I can't even believe how simple that all was. A bit less than 1 hour of my time and I broke one of his WORST habits (well, one of the most annoying anyway). I am impressed that it worked, and worked so QUICKLY! I anticipated that breaking that habit would probably take weeks, if I could EVER break it.

This opens up a whole new window on things I can do (most everything that y'all have suggested in this thread should work). I admit, I was a bit skeptical that removing myself from his presence would make much difference, because he acted like I wasn't even here part of the time anyway. He WANTS to hang out with me, and is willing to behave in order to do so! That's amazing! If I had only realized this sooner, he'd probably be a well-behaved puppy by now.

I'm going to continue taking baby steps with him. We're re-learning sit and stay today. He knows them, but is very selective about when he chooses to do them. I'll continue to post back with my experiences. Before we do ANYTHING he likes (going outside, getting into the car, food, toys, etc), he now knows he must sit. Maybe it'll help someone else to read this as it moves forward. Judging by the earlier success, this will be nowhere NEAR as difficult as I had anticipated, and I am kicking myself for even *thinking* about giving him up. A little nudge in the right direction and he proved me wrong (and made me look a bit foolish at the same time, which is probably exactly the kick in the pants I needed, because I am a bit stubborn). It was ME who was the problem all along, not him. Wow, what a concept!

That's great!!! Congratulations! I'm really happy to hear that []

When I let him in the 5th time, I laid down, he jumped up on the bed and laid down beside me and didn't make a single peep!

Just make sure you don't forget to reward him once he's finally settled down! I know it can be easy sometimes to kind of forget that the dog is there when he's being quiet and unobtrusive, like you'd like him to be, while it's hard to forget a dog that's playfully tackling you and chewing your arm off. Be ready for those "good" moments and keep up the rewards and I'm sure you guys will be doing well together in no time!

baron,

that is incredible!!!  You're well on your way to "taming the beast" so to speak.

BTW, another former jarhead here.  Semper Fi!

Semper Fi Xerxes. What I learned in the USMC hasn't been all that helpful with Max, unfortunately. I tried channeling all three of my drill instructors, but that was no help. haha

Max is quite calm tonight for some odd reason. I guess he's ACTUALLY worn out. I'm knocking on wood here, hoping he remains good through the rest of the evening. For some odd reason, he gets a huge spurt of energy at about 11pm every night, like clockwork. That's typically when he's totally out-of-control. I plan on getting up and walking away, instead of yelling at him tonight. Hopefully, that'll be as productive as the lockout earlier. Maybe he's realizing that he's really NOT the boss. I tried telling and showing him that, but he didn't understand (obviously). He's been exceptionally good ever since the lockout. Maybe he knows that it'll do him no good to make any attempts at domination, so he's given up, and can be a happy, healthy, NORMAL puppy. That's probably wishful thinking at this point. []

I am going to check out the book which was mentioned earlier, but does anyone else have any suggestions about books which would help me understand what's going on in Max's head? I think if I could understand, I'd have much less trouble training him. Once I figure out how things work, or why, I can almost always grasp how to best utilize them to my advantage. I want Max to be a happy dog, and I believe that the only way that can happen is through proper training. All of his acting out may have just been a cry for help, and I failed him. I will try everything written in this thread, for both of our sakes. Now that I know it CAN be done, failure is no longer an option. So thank you very much to everyone who has replied and read, you have saved me AND Max.

By the way, this evening, he has sat EVERY TIME I have told him. "Stay" is still coming along, slowly. Each time he manages to stay for a bit longer. I don't want to push him too much, I'm afraid I'll burn him out, or do something which could be counter-productive. It's difficult for me to keep in mind that his attention span isn't as long as mine.

Have a nice evening everyone. I'll report back soon.

Quick comment: I was shocked by having a puppy after losing my oh-so-good hound (who was an adult the day she was born, I swear) to cancer. She was the best dog and several months after her death, after being dogless for too long, I went out and found a PUPPY. Ellie was a monster compared to Kina, my hound. It was some serious learning time for me. I spent some serious tears over her, I did.
 
I got all kinds of books--most of them I wouldn't recommend now, though. The ones Spiritdogs listed are great, though, as well as so many posts here. They've all been right on, in my opinion. A puppy is a TON of work. OMG, a ton of work. I was lucky to find a positive trainer for my puppy class and that made for a super nice establishment. After that I took Ellie to some form of military training which wasn't so great, but we're back doing clicker training and things are good. She totally entertained my sister tonight will all of her "tricks" and great obedience moves. She got a lot of laughter out of my sister tonight. Fun, fun, fun. 
 
BTW, after having an HD dog, now you see the difference HD vs. normal is, huh? I know because my Ellie is a pseudo-HD dog who now has a new hip, and some 5+ months post op, she's like a wild puppy again so we're having some, uh, good times at my house relearning appropriate behaviors. Whew--I can't imagine what she'd be like had she been born with super-great hips.
 
Somehow I don't think I want to know . . .
 
(That's Ellie you see here; she's about 3.5 years old now.)

Books:  I don't know if these have already been mentioned, I might have missed it, but I recommend Don't Shoot The Dog by Karen Pryor, The Other End of The Leash (Patricia McConnell) and Bones Would Rain From The Sky (Suzanne Clothier)
 

  "Stay" is still coming along, slowly. Each time he manages to stay for a bit longer. I don't want to push him too much, I'm afraid I'll burn him out, or do something which could be counter-productive. It's difficult for me to keep in mind that his attention span isn't as long as mine.

 
Don't lose that attitude!  Therein lies the road to success.  Too many people are tempted to push the dog that little bit faster or "test" him, but baby steps are the way to go I promise you.  You're right on the money, stick at it.  Don't be disheartened if he regresses a little in the near future - that's common, just work steadily through it and you'll both be fine.
 
I'm so very pleased for both of you.  WELL DONE!!!  [][][][]

I'm not sure if the book you were talking about being recommended earlier was when I recommended "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson. That book will help you understand what is going on in your dog's head and how you've been misunderstanding, and how you can use the way dogs really think and learn to your advantage rather than constantly fighting against it.

Before I changed my mind about dogs and training, I felt like I was always in a conflict or power struggle with Conrad (he's my huge bloodhound mix--a 'stubborn' breed indeed). And Conrad's even a really great dog just naturally and we got him after his puppy stupid streak went away and even then, even with him being generally good and a post-adolescent, I still always saw training him as a power struggle and I guess I behaved accordingly, and I was totally frustrated and hated it. And I treated Conrad in less than compassionate ways on several occaisions because I was looking at the whole process as him vs. me and one of us had to "win" and damn it, it was going to be me! Changing my attitude about how dogs learn and why they do what they do and what training is all about made training fun, interesting, a happy time, and consequently I did it more, I was more consistent, and Conrad is a lot happier now---and better trained.

For some odd reason, he gets a huge spurt of energy at about 11pm every night, like clockwork. That's typically when he's totally out-of-control.

 
that's a puppy frenzy. Very common-- they outgrow them; best to just watch and laugh instead of getting angry. I'd suggest you take him outside and play hard with him about fifteen minutes before 11 pm, instead of waiting for him to get "out of control". You're still in the 'reactive" mindset-- waiting for him to be bad and planning to punish him in some way, instead of working hard to help him to always be good so you can reward the good.

Yup - or in the run up to 11pm have a shaping session with a saved portion of his kibble from supper - that will wear him out very effectively.  Or better still do both. 
 
Always modify your own actions nad manage the environment to produce the desired response so you can reward.

Way to go Baron!!!  You are doing a great job with Max and are starting to see some of the hard work pay off!  Keep up the NILIF with him and keep taking those baby steps.  You are really going in the right direction!!  Keep us posted with your progress.  I love Rotties and Max can be a great companion if trained properly.  Good luck!~!

This opens up a whole new window on things I can do (most everything that y'all have suggested in this thread should work). I admit, I was a bit skeptical that removing myself from his presence would make much difference, because he acted like I wasn't even here part of the time anyway. He WANTS to hang out with me, and is willing to behave in order to do so! That's amazing! If I had only realized this sooner, he'd probably be a well-behaved puppy by now.

 
Gosh, it's so NICE to hear what a breakthrough you had!! I'm glad you've got some hope back - you certainly don't have an "impossible case" on your hands, just an energetic pup who needs some boundaries.

Here is a website by a respected trainer, with many helpful articles:
[linkhttp://www.flyingdogpress.com/artlibreg.htm]http://www.flyingdogpress.com/artlibreg.htm[/link]
 
On that page, I would check out:
 
- 10 Tips For Problem Behavior
- Leadership Basics
 
And of course, the excellent NILIF techniques (these really apply to you!!):
[linkhttp://www.pets.ca/articles/article-dog_nilf.htm]http://www.pets.ca/articles/article-dog_nilf.htm[/link]

www.clickerlessons.com
www.clickertrainusa.com (watch the free videos)