Dog Community

At my wits end, need help

Posted : 2/15/2007 1:51:03 AM

I will start at the very beginning, since some of the early information may be pertinent to my situation...

Last July, I lost my best friend, my rottweiler named Baron. He was the *perfect* dog. I never had a single problem with him, he was a great protector and extraordinarily well behaved. He ended up getting Hip Dysplasia, and his condition worsened quickly, over a 6 month period. I knew it was getting close to the end, so I tried to make everything as comfortable for him as possible, but there came a point where he could no longer stand, and when he tried, he cried. I tried dozens of medications and surgical procedures, to no avail. One morning, he was unable to even stand and refused to eat or drink, so for both of us (him AND me), I went ahead and made the decision to put him to sleep (which was one of the hardest and most painful decisions I have ever made). Part of me died that hot summer day. Him and I spent a huge amount of time together over the 10 years he lived. He used to go to work with me when I did security work. We were inseparable. I would have given anything I own for more time with him...of course no amount of time would have been enough.

Move forward 6 weeks. I began searching for something that would fill the void left inside me. Although I believe "fill" is a great overstatement, because nothing will ever fill it. I spoke to my veterinarian, and she gave me a book with breeders in it and I began making calls and looking at rottweiler puppies. I found a breeder about 150 miles from here, who had some puppies, so I drove up, took a look, and there was one puppy who "stuck out" among the rest. He was SUPER-playful (just how baron was when he was very young), and he reminded me very much of baron looks-wise. I went ahead and bought him, named him Max and took him to the vet to make sure everything was squared away and he was a healthy puppy. He's the picture of perfect health.

I'm sure many of you know how puppies are when you first bring them home...they're very cute, cuddly and spend most of their time sleeping. Max was no different in this respect. However, he did like to bite and play very rough. I figured it was something I could teach him not to do, so I read everything I could get my hands on concerning puppy training. I bought DVDs, books and drew on some of the knowledge I had from training Baron all those years ago. I thought I had it covered and I could make Max be as good as Baron. I was wrong...

Max is currently 10 months old. He has some serious aggression problems. He still bites, jumps on people and plays extremely rough. I have tried training methods from DVD, books and forums. I've tried both choke and prong collars. I have tried spanking (even though that's something I really don't like doing). I've seen a professional trainer, who was pretty much baffled by max's boundless energy and total lack of response to what people say, even when he's in pain, or cannot breathe due to Max pulling so hard on the choke chain. I've also tried noise-makers and water sprayed from a bottle. I currently look like I got into a fight with a thorn bush, due to all the scratch and bite marks on my arms. Fortunately, he doesn't use his full-force when he's biting, but he does use his full force when he jumps on me with his claws. It's gotten to the point where he KNOWS when he's in trouble. He knows right from wrong, but he refuses to do the right thing. When he's excited, NOTHING can calm his excitement. When he knows he's getting a spanking, he'll go sit in the corner, I'll spank him and the very second I turn my back, he either continues what he was doing previously (the act that got him into trouble), or he jumps on me or scratches me from behind. For the record, I have never had any problem whatsoever training my previous dogs (I've had dogs since I was a young boy, which was a couple of decades ago). I know he's not deaf, because he hears me when I yell, and he can hear the ultrasonic device that I used, but it doesn't stop him from doing what he's not supposed to. Honestly, it seems to me like he doesn't feel pain. He will pull on the choke/prong collars until he can no longer breathe...I can hear him straining for breath. Nothing deters him from doing bad things. He gets tons of exercise, so I don't believe that's the issue either. He also chews on anything he can get his mouth on, which is a very bad thing for a house-dog. One of the main things he does, is he gets down on his front two legs, with his butt up in the air...and growl. Then once a growl and a couple of barks are done, he'll lunge at whoever happens to be in front of him, trying to bite or scratch with his claws. This wasn't such a problem when he was a puppy, but it's a MASSIVE problem now. I have spanked him dozens of times for it, yet he continues.

When he's around other dogs, he has no desire to sniff them, he immediately runs and jumps on them, just like he does on people. I know it's an aggression/dominance problem. Baron always stayed over at my grandparents' house when I had to go somewhere (I work from home), but I cannot take max over there anymore, because he terrorizes them, and I'm afraid he'll knock my grandmother down and injure her. My grandfather has had dozens of dogs through the years that have always minded him without question. He's got that silent, yet extremely powerful demeanor, which should be exactly what Max needs to be exposed to, but max doesn't listen to my grandfather either. Grandpa has whacked max over the nose with a twig, and that didn't stop his behavior either.

When Max is good (which is fairly rare), he is one of the most affectionate dogs I have ever had and he's so incredibly in-tune to my feelings. If I am bummed out, he'll come up to me and put his head on my lap, or lick my hands. So he's not a dumb dog either. He knows sit, stay, down, outside and other basic commands, and occasionally he follows those commands, but not when he's excited, or being aggressive/dominant. His parents were both very gentle dogs, who showed no tendency toward violence whatsoever. Max was not the oldest or youngest puppy, he was the 2nd of 4. Not the largest, not the smallest.

He's getting to the point where he's a danger to everyone...including me. I'm not a quitter, I don't give up very easily. That may come from being a former marine. I have always been able to adapt to and overcome any situation, but I am absolutely at my wits end with Max. I am completely at a loss about what to do. I have considered taking him to a shelter, but he'd be euthanized because he'd be too dangerous for anyone else to adopt. I have also thought about putting him to sleep, but that seems so very harsh. There's GOT to be some sort of trick or treatment that will work that I'm overlooking. It's unfair to him to put him to sleep, and that is an absolute LAST option. I'd much rather give him to someone who I knew could handle him than that, but I'm afraid that nobody would be able to handle him. At 10 months, he's quite large, so he'll be above average in size, weight and strength, and frankly, that's a bit worrisome at this point.

If there's anyone out there with suggestions, I'd *love* to hear 'em. I must do something about his behavior NOW or risk serious injury to myself, or someone else...or worse. I don't know if there's a such thing as a dog that just cannot be domesticated for what ever reason, but I am beginning to think that's Max. I feel so sorry about the whole situation, because I just can't imagine what is causing these problems, and I fear that this will deteriorate into something truly horrible.

Thank you in advance for your reply, and have a nice week.
-Scott

Chuffy

Posted : 2/15/2007 5:35:14 AM

First - STOP spanking him. This is mean and as you have seen it is clearly not working. Don't let your family hit him with twigs either!!

Second, dogs do not know "right from wrong" and they do not "know they have done something wrong". This is a human perspective. The dog is picking up on your angry signals and trying to deflect your "aggression". It does not mean he knows what he did to cause it. He is confused.

Third, this dog does not sound aggressive to me. Despite your best efforts, you simply haven't trained him so that he knows how to play and behvae appropriately. This behaviour:

One of the main things he does, is he gets down on his front two legs, with his butt up in the air...and growl

is called a "play bow". The growling and barking is not something to be alarmed about - this is a known Rottie trait and is not aggressive. He is just "talking " to you. Excessive mouthing as a puppy is also something Rotties are known for and is fairly easy to curb during puppyhood but harder at this stage because the habit is deeply ingrained. The moment his teeth touch your skin just yell "OUCH!!" as if you are hurt and then leave the room immediately, shut the door and leave him behind. Wait 30secs-1min and then return without looking at or speaking to him - get on with something else and only attempt to interact when he is C-A-L-M. Always have a toy or chew ready when you interact so he has something to direct his teeth on to and make sure to praise him really well for using it. Also try freezing some of his chews and toys as this will be soothing for him (he is likely to teething and has to chew on SOMETHING)

At 10 months he is still little more than an overgrown puppy and what's worse, he is entering adolesence, a testing period at the best of times, but worse if the dog has not had the proper training and it sounds like Max hasn't (I know you've done your best). You may want to consider getting him neutered if you haven't already, but do bear in mind that this alone will not alter his behaviour, a lot of hard work is still needed and any effects will not be seen for several weeks if not months. It's also usually best left until the dog is mature.

You don't go into any detail of how you have tried to train Max other than using prong/choke collars and spanking him so I don't really know what to suggest - it may be you have already tried it! So first, a few questions:

1. How did you try to teach him to curb his biting and inappropriate play behaviours when he was a puppy?
2. Does he have a crate?
3. Did he go to a good puppy class?
4. What other socialisation and training has he had?
5. How much exercise does he have? How much time is spent each day playing and training him and does he have any interactive toys?
6. Have you contacted his breeder for advice? A good breeder wil be willing and eager to help out if you encounter problems because by helping you they help the dog and the wellbeing of the dogs they breed is their ultimate concern (or should be)

My suggestions are:
1. Calm down. When you get worked up and aggrivated, you don't help the situation. Stop yelling. Stop spanking. Stop reacting. Be pro-active in managing his envirmonent to engineer good behaviour so that you can reward it rather than waiting for him to "misbehave" and reacting to that.
2. Start doing NILIF. (Nothing In Life Is Free). Make him work for everything good in life. For example a sit or down every time he is fed, given a treat, or a cuddle or have a door opened or a toy thrown or his lead attached... ANYTHING. Even better, hand feed him his meal for a few weeks (if he is fed kibble) and use it to train him. Don't ask him to do anything unless you can enforce it otherwise he will simply learn to ignore you.
3. Start rewarding him for any and all good behaviours and don't interact at all around the house unless he is C-A-L-M. Don't respond to pushy or demanding behaviours, ignore him, walk away. Call him when he is C-A-L-M for a fuss or a game. When you come home after a time away or even when you re-enter a room, just ignore him, wait for him to be C-A-L-M, don't say "no" or "stop it" or even "sit" or "bad boy"..... This is attention which is rewarding for him.
4. Get a GOOD trainer to help you.
5. Get a crate if you don't have one already and introduce hin to it slowly and kindly. This is own special space, his bed, his den, his safe haven. It should never be used as a punishment but is a handy place to leave him if you can't supercise him for a short time, or if he gets worked up and needs to cool down. Always leave him in there with something nice like a chew, bone or treat.

glenmar

Posted : 2/15/2007 6:29:00 AM

I think that your expectations play a huge part in this. You got this pup to be like Baron. He's a pup, and he's NOT Baron. Never will be, can't be, and shouldn't be expected to be. Please stop the mental comparisons because this boy will ALWAYS come up short in your mind....and he's gonna know that.

A trainer who tells me that s/he doesn't know what to make of my pup, darn well better be ready to refer me to someone who WILL know.

I agree with Chuffy. Stop hitting the dog, stop yelling at the dog, stop expecting him to know the difference between right and wrong and realize that he simply needs a calm and consistent leader who is strong and gentle. Despite his size, go back to puppy training 101.....and start over. It will take him a LONG time to unlearn the bad behaviors that have been allowed for 10 months, but it IS doable. Dump the prong and choker and find yourself a GOOD positive reinforcement trainer. Our trainers on the forum take THEIR pups to training.......I've taken in dogs who have lived outside on a chain for years and transformed their behavior. It can be done, but the methods you're currently using aren't going to do it. Sounds like the two of you are in a power struggle, and he's winning.

Recommit to this animal. Vow to do whatever it takes to get him to a socially acceptable status and WORK until you accomplish that goal. You brought him home and promised him a home for his lifetime, now you need to work to make that possible.

Chuffy

Posted : 2/15/2007 8:11:26 AM

Also - the only thing that makes this dog aggressive is his size and lack of training. PTS is not an option IMO. Nor is dumping him in a shelter. You can do this.... you just need to change your approach.

Scott

Posted : 2/15/2007 9:47:51 AM

I tried positive reinforcement initially, but he never really took to it. I will start completely over with him. I know he has the potential to be a GREAT dog.

To curb his biting when he was a puppy, I'd obviously jerk my hand away, but I never really said anything other than "NO!". In fact, I bet he thought for a while there, his name WAS no.

Yes, he has a crate, and his own area with a giant pillow and blankets, which he makes as his bed. He really doesn't like the crate much, no matter where I put it, or what's inside.

No, he didn't go to a good puppy class. I wasn't even aware that there were such things! I live in a very small town, over an hour away from the nearest city, St. Louis. I quickly learned that finding a local trainer wasn't going to be easy.

As far as socialization. I used to take him everywhere I go that wasn't work-related, and was appropriate for a puppy. He's gone to all of my family's houses (I have a large family). He used to go to my poker games when he was a puppy (which he seemed to really enjoy, but he got too large and out of control, so I didn't feel comfortable taking him there anymore). He's met many other dogs and people in a lot of different situations.

He has as much play time as he wants. When he wants to go outside and play, he has a huge yard to go crazy in (and he often does). He had even MORE room over at my grandparents house, and other dogs to play with (both of which are VERY well behaved, and very calm). They no longer play with him though, when they see him, they scurry off like the devil himself has just arrived. He's just too rough for them. He also goes to play with a former police dog occasionally, or rather used to, before he got so out of control around other dogs.

I only try training him when he's calm. When he's excited, it's a lost cause. It's like he's tuned everyone and everything else out...which is fine, except for the fact that he's got infinite energy it seems. He'll go out and run around, playing with a ball or a stick for HOURS on end, then come back in and be rambunctious for many more hours.

He has tons of toys. I guess he's a bit spoiled in that respect. I don't have children, so when I'm out, I often pick him something up. He's got dozens of tennis balls that we play with in the yard. He's got nylon chew toys that he chews on constantly. I used to give him rawhide bones and pig ears, until my vet said that probably wasn't the best thing to do (baron never had any problem with 'em, but like y'all have said, Max isn't baron). I have various other hard plastic, soft rubber-type toys, some of which he likes, some he doesn't. I hadn't really thought of putting them into the freezer to alleviate some of his teething pain, but I will give that a try. He also has several braided ropes that I use to play with him occasionally, he loves tug-of-war.

As far as learning not to mark territory in the house, he's excellent about that. We had the usual troubles when he was a puppy, but that only lasted for a couple of days, until I could get adjusted to his bathroom schedule. Now he does a great job of letting me know when he needs to go out and we haven't had an accident in months.

I haven't contacted the breeder, because they are so far away. My vet is in the process of finding me a GOOD trainer, someone who DOESN'T give up.

I really appreciate the responses. I'll be starting over today, when he's done with his morning play time. Hopefully, he comes back in exhausted...although, since it's winter, he really doesn't want to stay out very long, because it's rather cold outside (currently 12 degrees). I will try restarting his training and post back with my experiences. Thank you.

Xerxes

Posted : 2/15/2007 10:10:10 AM

You've gotten some great suggestions. I want to add, for the lurkers here, this is precisely why you curb behaviors early in puppies. That "jumping up" behavior is cute, when they're 10 weeks old, but when they are 10 months and 100lbs it's no longer cute-it's dangerous.

My suggestions are the same as what you've gotten already. First off, this dog is NOT Baron, and will never be like Baron in anything other than appearance.

I didn't see if you had your boy neutered, this might help a bit. The main problem is that you need a new foundation of behavior. This dog has absolutely no idea what you expect and want from him. You say he knows he's done wrong, no, what he knows-from reading your body language, is that you are angry. He's hiding in a corner because he's making himself look small in hopes that you don't turn your anger towards him.

Consider your dog, from this point forward, to be a brand new dog, one that just came to your house. Behaviors that you would like to end-do not reinforce. Do not give this dog the run of the house. No sitting on furniture, or getting up on beds. Reward calm behavior. Follow a strict NILIF protocol. Begin a basic obedience course. Learn how to relate to this dog in a way that he understands.

Since you've found that aversive techniques don't work, you might want to try positive techniques to reinforce good behaviors. For more information feel free to ask specific questions and you'll get specific answers.

Striking a dog, in any way, shape or form, is not a form of punishment to a dog. It is, however, a recipe for a fear aggressive dog that will bite. A form of punishment to a dog is taking away something that he holds dear: companionship with his people. Seclude him for 2-4 minutes when he misbehaves-but only when you catch him in the act. Not 10 seconds later, not 2 minutes later. Only exactly at that time. In training, as you will learn, timing is crucial.

I hope this helps-please keep us posted.

houndlove

Posted : 2/15/2007 10:48:36 AM

First of all, I want to express sympathy for your loss. We lost our beloved dog Ananda less than a year after we adopted him and it was devastating. He hadn't even been with us for that long and it was just heartbreaking. We got a new dog also abotu 6 weeks later who in the end could not have been more different from Ananda, and I understand wanting to compare. But it really in the end is not fair to Max.

Anyway, just to address one of our comments...

Positive reinforcement training always works. By definition, a positive reinforcement is anything you can add to the dog's environment or give to the dog that will increase the chances that a wanted behavior will happen again. By using that definition, there is no dog in the universe, and in fact no animal in the universe, that is incapable of being reinforced positively.

When people say they tried positive reinforcement and "it didn't work" that actually means they didn't use positive reinforcement. If they did, the desired behavior would have increased. That's the definition of it.

Usually what people mean when they say it didn't work is that they didn't use something that, added to the dog's environment, actually worked to increase the desired behavior. For instance, for some dogs adding a social cue such as praise or attention to their environment is hugely motivating for them. For mine, they don't care. If I used that, I would have not been positively reinforcing because praise and social acceptance is not something that's going to increase a desired behavior in my dogs and I would have gone away saying, "positive reinforcement doesn't work" when actually I just chose a poor reinforcer. Mine love, above all other things, food. So I add food to their environment to increase desired behaviors. At certain times, going outside to potty is something they really want, so I will use introducing that opportunity to their environment to increase a desired behavior. For some dogs, playing fetch is the one thing that they obsess over every second of the day and for those dogs the throw of a ball is something that can be added to their environment to increase a behavior. I suspect for an adolescent rottie a game of tug is probably a huge motivator, but you know your dog best.

Reinfocing positively is as easy as this: wait for the dog to perform the desired behavior (every dog has to sit or lay down at some point, even the most hyper ones, and you can lure a dog into these positions as well, using a treat or something else that interests them), then at that VERY SECOND add the reinforcer to the dog's environment. Give a treat, give praise and attention, throw the ball, start a game of tug, open the door to outside, whatever it is that the dog loves most in the world.

Hand in hand with positive reinforcement is negative punishment. The definition of negative punishment is removing something that the dog likes from it's environment in order to increase the chances that an unwanted behavior will not be performed again. So, the dog jumps for attention, you remove your attention and leave the room. Then come back and try some positive reinforcement, the dog sits and you give all kinds of attention.

This is the kind of stuff that makes sense to a dog. I do this, I get something I want. I do that, something I want goes away. So, I will do this instead of that. Simple.

As far as the positive punishment (adding somethign the dog doesn't like--choking, pinching, loud noises, scary things)/negative reinforcement (taking away something that caused fear or pain or distress to get a good behavior) angle, dogs who are insensitive to pain don't respond to the amount of force your average person can apply. A positive punishment, in order to not just be continual nagging and abuse, has to be strong enough to make such an enormous impression on the dog that the dog simply WILL NOT try the behavior again. If you can't do that, then give up the positive punishment angle because it simply winds up spiralling into abuse, but still has no effect on the dog's behaviors except to make the dog more fearful and more aggressive. Like positive reinforcement, the definition of positive punishment is introducing something into the environment that the dog does not like in order to decrease the chances a particular behavior will be tried again. If it's not doing that for you, its not positive punishment, it's just nagging (at best) or abuse (at worst). If you choke a dog every time he jumps, but he keeps jumping, choking is not a positive punisher for the dog, it's just choking.

For people really frustrated with their dogs I HIGHLY recommend the book The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. It will help you understand how dogs think and learn, that they don't understand "right and wrong", that they only understand "works for me, does not work for me", that they don't act out of spite or revenge or just to piss you off. She calls this the "Disney" view of dogs, not reality. Lassie rescues little Timmy because she's a "good dog" but Max clearly is a bad bad dog, right? Wrong. Dogs do not understand "good" and "bad". Those are labels we place on them. Move beyond the label, move beyond the memory of Baron, accept Max as he is and motivate him to want to behave in a way you desire.

Susan Robertson

Posted : 2/15/2007 11:10:29 AM

The only thing I can add to the already good advice above is for you to make sure all family members are on the same page with you. Meaning, everybody must stop hitting your dog and using such futile, angry means to curb his behavior. What he IS learning is to distrust and be afraid of your grandfather and you. I wouldn't want a scared, fearful Rottie on my hands with lots of energy.

Consistancy is what will help Max learn. Dogs don't speak English and have no clue as to what all teh verbage you throw at him means. Added with whacks across the nose or butt is just intensifying this problem.

One other thing....I haven't seen (maybe I missed it) where Max is getting regular walks/runs and exercise. He obviously isn't getting enough if his energy level is this high adn out of control. Tire him out and he may be more apt to learn and get in the calm zone.

Scott

Posted : 2/15/2007 11:37:52 AM

I just knew I had to do *something* different, because the methods I've been using just don't work.

I will look for the book later this afternoon, thank you for the suggestions. Every other puppy that I have had has been rambunctious, but they grew out of it and none of them spiraled out of control like Max is doing, but like y'all have said, max isn't anyone else, he's max, and I need to learn to deal with HIM and forget past experiences. I think precisely what I need is to learn how he thinks. I am a fairly logical person. I like to know how things work. I just (wrongly) assumed that dogs were all the same and the tricks that worked for one would work for all. I now am beginning to see that dogs are quite diverse. I really owe it to max to learn to teach him what he needs to know. It's just difficult to not get frustrated occasionally, because I know he CAN behave properly.

I do occasionally take max for walks, although fewer now than I used to, because he's so out-of-control. I believe he does get enough exercise, he spends a huge amount of time outside every day, and has plenty of room to run as fast as he can in long, straight lines. He especially loves chasing a large, yellow ball around the yard. He'll push it around and chase it for hours on end. If I didn't know better, I'd say he's on drugs, I have never seen any dog with such boundless energy. He can run outside all day, and still come inside and go crazy. If I had 1/10th of his energy, I could run around the world in a single day. He would probably make an excellent working dog in a law-enforcement situation, if he could behave. His desire to work and play is virtually unstoppable.

Have y'all seen the little packs that are occasionally used for dogs, which allows them to carry things? Would one of those be beneficial to max? Carrying something may help him burn a bit of extra energy during our walks (I'm going to start walking him more).

willowchow

Posted : 2/15/2007 11:53:31 AM

Hi Scott--I'm so sorry about Baron. I was in tears reading his story.

Willow (my chow) is also very difficult to get to focus. And, she was for real aggressive when I got her. I think Max is just being obnoxious and not really aggressive but you are right it very well could turn into that as he ages.

The suggestion up above about the Nothing In Life Is Free program really is your best bet. It literally saved Willow.

It will be easy to start since Max already knows some commands. From here on out he needs to "work" do a command for everything he gets. Take almost all those toys away too, he needs to earn them back. Basically, you don't want to spoil him at this time. No furniture and when you are out he needs to be confined. It's not a potty issue but a you rule the roost issue. Having free roam of the house, that's a priveledge and he hasn't earned it yet. Have him sit for treats or to meet someone. If he can't sit nicely, no interaction. He should be waiting for you to go first at doors, and when you come home, no interaction right away. A lot of people don't think this stuff is necessary but I'm here to say, it is.

As he gets much better you can let up on things and give him more freedom. If Willow starts acting bratty at any time, we go back to less for her.

And, I know others have told you not to spank him. I would agree. And, I think if you follow this program you will see, you're not going to need to do that anymore anyway.

If you Google Nothing In Life Is Free lots of cool links will come up that explain it further. There's also a book I have called, So Your Dogs Not Lassie that I found really helpful too. With dogs like ours the more knowledge you have of the way a dog thinks the more successful you will be.

Good luck and feel free to PM me anytime for info or with any questions. I'm not a pro just been there. I almost gave my dog up to a rescue TWICE!

Lori[

]

Chuffy

Posted : 2/15/2007 12:15:51 PM

ORIGINAL: baron

I tried positive reinforcement initially, but he never really took to it. I will start completely over with him.

If positive training is not working, it means that the reinforcer is not strong enough. If compulsion is not working it means the aversive is not strong enough. In either case, it can often be a lack of consistency on the trainer's part causing confusion. So you were confusing him or the reward was not high enough - it wasn't that he didn't "take" to that kind of training. In fact I do think that's a better option for you because he is so strong physically and mentally that any kind "battle" with him is not a guaranteed contest in your favour!

ORIGINAL: baron

To curb his biting when he was a puppy, I'd obviously jerk my hand away, but I never really said anything other than "NO!". In fact, I bet he thought for a while there, his name WAS no.

Saying "NO" on it's own won't do anything. It's just a meaningless sound to the dog and often delivered at the wrong moment so that it is not actually connected with the undesired behaviour, in which case it just doesn't do anything.

uppies NEED to chew and mouth on SOMETHING so if an alternative is not provided,`even if you have managed to convey some meaning with "No" he will carry on regardless and he will quickly learn to ignore it - it sounds like something like that happened. Do take glendas advice on this one.

ORIGINAL: baron
He really doesn't like the crate much, no matter where I put it, or what's inside.

Feed his meals in there. Make sure any time he gets a bone or chew or stuffed Kong it's in the crate. Hide treats and toys in there to encourage him to go in. Put an old item of your clothing in with your scent on. Get some DAP (either one you can plug in nearby or a spray you can spritz into the crate) Don't use it as a punishment and don't shut him in there initially (unless he has somehing super yummy to distract him)

ORIGINAL: baron
No, he didn't go to a good puppy class. I wasn't even aware that there were such things! I live in a very small town, over an hour away from the nearest city, St. Louis. I quickly learned that finding a local trainer wasn't going to be easy.

Oh no poor you! Sounds like youve really gone in at the deep end and you've been struggling on your own, with the constant memory of an outstanding dog lurking at the back of your mind causing you to berate poor Max and yourself. A good puppy class would have helped enormously. I have a feeling trying to get him into a class now will just get you down and he would do better 1 on 1 - but when he has made some improvement, do try to find a good one. In the meantime, what has your trainer advised/tried and have you asked them for a referral if they are stumped?

ORIGINAL: baron
As far as socialization. I used to take him everywhere I go that wasn't work-related, and was appropriate for a puppy....He's met many other dogs and people in a lot of different situations.

Good for you! Brilliant news! The better his socialisation was a pup, the less likely you will have fear based problems. Dogs with varied socialisation and lots of +ve experiences as pups are easier to train because they generalise and adapt to new things relatively easily.... little phases them. And they are much brighter than dogs with little stimulation or envirnmental change. Which is really encouraging because it means that with just a change of approach you could turn this dog round and make a lot of progress without having to battle aggression or fear problems or just lack of willingness to learn or accept anything new.

ORIGINAL: baron
He has as much play time as he wants.

While plenty of stimulation is a very very good thing, I think that you should be in control of all resources for this guy (the basis of NILIF) and that includes playtime. Let him have the same amount of play, but engineer it that it is at times when you instigate it, make sure you get involved and retain control (this also means he learns its beneficial to stick by you - you're interesting and motivating and worth listening to). You decide when the game starts, what it entails, you keep control and you decide when it ends. You can incorporate control and some learning at these time, you need to make every effort to be fun and interesting to him and use whatever motivates the dog to encourage him to "work for you" at these times.

Great news about the toys too!! Its great he has so many - keep his favourite ones in a box and use them as "motivators". The ones you play with him with (like balls, his favourite tuggy) are good ones to keep in that box. Also, rotate the ones he has free access to, this will keep them interesting - so put a few of away somewhere and bring them out in a week or so and put the others away instead. Your vet is right to advise caution against rawhide and pigs ears, these are very yummy for dogs but they have been treated with lots of chemicals so are very much "junk food". You wouldn't pig out on burgers every day - so dont give those kind of treats every day - but occasionally I think they are alright. Just be sure to supervise and not leave him alone with them, because they can be dangerous. It is possible for a dog to soften a chunk and try to gulp it which could cause choking or a blockage. They are also great for freezing. Rope toys can be moistened and frozen too. Have you taught him to "trade" stuff with you? (drop a toy in return for a better toy or a treat?) That's invaluable for retaining control and getting him to let go when you want which is important. Of course the best reward is to let him get back on the toy again straight away nearly all the time.

It's good to hear he was so good at potty training - it's an indicator of how quick and willing he is to learn! And also an indicator of how successful he can be when you manage his environment carefully to help him get it right so you can praise and reward him. Keep thinking back to that potty training - it's proof you can both make it work with the right approach.

I can appreciate your breeder may not be able to offer handson help, but should have bottomless breed experience and knowledge which they can share with you on the phone. Please do give them a call.

Please do come back and keep us posted. I am a big fan of Rotties and would be genuinely interested to hear about his progress. He sounds like he will be a super dog one day in the not too distant future. I'm so pleased you're committed to him. Good luck!

Brian

Posted : 2/15/2007 12:17:10 PM

Hi Scott,

I don't have anything to add to all the wonder advice you've been given. I just wanted to say I am so sorry about Baron, and that I think you are being a good owner by actively seeking out help and listening to other people advice. I wish you the best of luck with Max!

mudpuppy

Posted : 2/15/2007 12:17:27 PM

ok, first of all, you're going about this all the wrong way. You don't train a dog by "stopping him from doing bad things". You train a dog by teaching him what to do and manipulating the environment so he literally cannot do 'bad things". It sounds like your dog is a hard, high-drive dog. These dogs really don't notice pain or aversives, or care if you're screaming at them, but they do respond wonderfully to positive reinforcement. Catch the dog doing something good, and reward him. Food, toys, games, praise, petting. You're going to feed the dog anyway, so you might as well make him earn his food by being good.

To curb his biting when he was a puppy, I'd obviously jerk my hand away, but I never really said anything other than "NO!". In fact, I bet he thought for a while there, his name WAS no.

this is actually a really good way to ENCOURAGE a puppy to bite you even more. They bite because they are trying to play. You yank your hand away, wonderful! you're playing back. You just rewarded your dog for biting you. Dogs have no idea what the word "no" means, so there's no point in telling your dog "no".

The way to curb biting is to make a loud "yelp" noise and withdraw attention. That means freeze and look away from the dog.

Jumping, well, jumping up on you is how a submissive puppy greets his elders. Best way to permanently cure jumping up is to teach the dog to politely greet people by sitting.

Pulling on leash-- discard the choker and the prong, clearly they don't work for this guy. Try one of the head-halter things or an easy walk harness, and make sure you don't reward his pulling by letting him move forward when he pulls.

As to exercise, it sounds like he gets most of his exercise by racing around in the backyard. Without you. Thus he's learned that "the world gives him good stuff", and you, all you give him is pain and scoldings. Why should he pay any attention to you? You need to change his attitude by making yourself the center of fun and good stuff. NILIF is a great start. I think you need to put yourself in the picture as to providing his exercise as well. Get out there and play with him. Keep a toy in his mouth so he won't bite at you.

spiritdogs

Posted : 2/15/2007 12:31:34 PM

You might still be able to find a training facility to go to class. Try the trainer searches at these sites:
www.peaceablepaws.com
www.courteouscanines.com
www.clickertraining.com
www.ccpdt.com

Chuffy

Posted : 2/15/2007 12:40:52 PM

Re the exercise - DEFINATELY speak to your breeder and your vet about the pack to make sure it won't put extra strain on his joints!!! I'm sure you know the risk of hip dysplasia in this breed and his joints are still very immature. I would be giving him 15 mins of brisk lead walking 3 times a day plus the free play time he is already getting, plus interactive toys and training. (Get him a busta cube and feed some of his daily kibble in it) As his joints get more mature and you gain more control you can increase the distance you go gradually.