Let Sleeping Dogs Lie??

Thanks for all the replies, when I get chance I will try and get back to you, kind of busy lately.

Often but not always, but I do beleive she may think she has one with her even if she doesn't. Sometimes she will growl and then get up and go over to one 4-5 feet away. My wife still thinks eventually she may get over it but I am going to bring up removing them again for a while if this continues.

I am the one that is very agressive with her when she attacks but that just seems to anger her more and prolong the session. My wife interupts with me "going at it" with her. I guess I get as crazy with anger when she acts like that, but I would never hurt her.

We always have a consistant amount of light in the room at that time of night, we even watch movies in the same light I would watch regular TV with. She is always laying down when this happens, probably falling asleep or sleeping. Like I said, I think I can get my wife to agree with removing the long term bones if this continues since it is easy and cheap.

Like I said, this NEVER happens in the late hours of darkness, 11-7, when we have gone to sleep and get up to get a drink or use the bathroom. Now the question is if she really sleeps those hours of the night. Maybe she is more awake than we think?

The room is bright but under the coffee table she probably feels protected and may see shadows too. Behind the sofa where the "hallway" is, is also shaded. She lays in many places but those are where we have problems the most.

A lot to respond to there but thanks.

No of those things on the list would come into play here. She does jerk some times to movement on the TV as she passes but it never resulted in anything other than catching her attention for a moment. We did talk last night about finding a new place for her to chill, but I think she likes to be as close to us as possible unless she is warming by the wood stove or by a drafty window to cool off.

I mentioned the TCVM to my wife but she thinks we should try some other things first (I think removing the bones) but I will keep it in mind. The common things are:

1) time of the evening

2)location

3)proximity to her bones

4)us getting up while she is near or passing closely by or over her while she is laying down or sleeping.

But this is not a fool proof combination, all these can be in place and sometimes she does nothing. I think it is a matter of her knowing what is going on around her or not knowing.

 I would definitely start with taking away free access to everything but water. Google "NILIF". She must work for her food, treats, petting, time outside, you to open doors, walks, bones, furniture access (later, I wouldn't let her up while she's guardy), everything. It sounds, to me, like she's tired, and cranky, and doesn't want you messing with her special treats.

I'm agreeing with Jennie.  I also leave only water out at night. 

jgln

I mentioned the TCVM to my wife but she thinks we should try some other things first (I think removing the bones) but I will keep it in mind. The common things are:

1) time of the evening

2)location

3)proximity to her bones

4)us getting up while she is near or passing closely by or over her while she is laying down or sleeping.

The thing is -- a dog is not going to react differently JUST because of the time of day.  The fact that this is a particular time of day AND has to do with sleep is a big huge *red flag*.

There are two different points here -- yes, by all means you want to minimize the incidences -- meaning removing the bones, and re-arranging the space so it doesn't "set her up to fail" (and if you continue to let her lie in the same place and have this happen OVER and OVER again you ***ARE*** setting her up to fail and it will also set this up to worsen as time passes!!)

BUT ... the flaw in your wife's thinking is that much of this type of response is closely allied with learning -- how a dog **handles** a seizure state is a big huge deal.  How ***YOU*** handle a seizure state often makes the huge difference of a) whether it gets worse, b) how easy the dog is to deal with DURING the seizure state and c) what the prognosis is.

By trying to resolve it all behaviorally **without trying to find out the root cause/problem** you could well be reinforcing bad reactions that you could overcome by treating it sooner.

I can't emphasize enough -- this would *not* be expensive to treat with TCVM -- particularly NOT if you deal with it before it accellerates into full blown seizures. 

Seizures can worsen -- and once they get to a certain degree of severity THEN you have to treat with drugs (which gets more expensive).  BUT if you can halt it in early stages so it doesn't worsen, you likely can avoid all of it.

This isn't snake oil stuff -- it really isn't.  BUT stress causes seizures to worsen.  Getting all upset and hollering and yelling?  That's honestly for sure going to accellerate it if it's merely behavioral, and it sure as shootin is gonna make it worse if it's physical. 

Frankly?  What you're doing by reacting so negatively is a recipe for freaking disaster.  It's going to escalate -- in one of several ways.  And it could get really ugly. 

By all means -- re-arrange the situation and take up the bones and make her be in a sifferent position in the room so she's not in an area to "protect" but rather is in an area SUFFICIENTLY LARGE for her to be safely contained, and yet **separated** from the humans before somebuddy gets hurt.

 But get some TCVM help FIRST because this has a lot of red flags that make it sound SO neural it's not funny.  And that's not going to just get better -- and it could get a whole lot worse unnecessarily.

ETA: The pup may also have a hearing or vision loss or hearing/vision processing difficulty. This could become more evident when coming out of sleep--it might be taking a lot longer for her to get oriented, and she's getting stressed about that. If a hearing loss, she might startle very easily when disturbed because she can't hear any of the environmental noise we hear when dozing or light sleeping. So, she's jarred awake every time and feels unsafe. Again my springer--she was deaf in her old age (and lost a lot of her vision)--we never woke her by touching her in her old age because it was too stressful for her--she didn't know who or what was touching her or why. Instead, I would put my hand in front of her nose for a bit--she would start to process the new scent and would wake up much more calmly and without startle.

jgln -- bottom line, you've actually got some folks experienced in this type of seizure responding to you here -- and the glitch is, IF IT **IS** a seizure, then you have to handle it AS a seizure first.  Because taking the wrong steps here will **HUGELY INCREASE** the problem. 

Treating it as a seizure isn't going to screw up treating behaviors.  It's just going to increase your options and likely will be FAR less expensive in the long run, and could save the dog's life and *you* getting bitten.

See again what Kate said -- the seizures always occurred between supper and bedtime.   If your "bedtime" is earlier than mine then that 10 - 1 a.m. window I mentioned will move way back.  It also is impacted by where you are geographically (latitude and longitude -- because the earth's spin and the moon's pull has a HUGE effect on seizures -- that's true).

But like I said -- setting yourself up to be "safe" first and to decrease the behavioral triggers is a big deal.  this is **NOT** dominant behavior.  Dominant behavior doesn't go by the clock.  If she were dominant she'd be dominant at 8:00 a.m. -- not just between supper and bedtime.  Trying to out "alpha" her is going to greatly increase this -- and it's already increasing.

I'll say this again -- seizures are NOT all thrashing on the floor and swallowing your tongue.  Not for humans and not for dogs.  My first key is when you said "she snaps out of it" -- so much of what you say supports that this is so likely a seizure.  Please ... don't wait.  and please don't think you have to pursue something expensive.  If you will email me I can probably help hook you up with a vet that can help you.

I think if I email you on this network your emails will come to my work email and I don't want that. I would need to be on my home computer. What I can tell you now is what vet we use if that helps. We really just go here due to the location to home. I will check with my wife on when her next checkup is scheduled for. She takes her to the vet not me because of my work hours.

 http://www.swedesboroah.com/

Swedsboro Animal Hospital (NJ)

At the top of my post look all the way to the right after my name -- click "contact" -- you can pm (a personal message) or email.  That email is my yahoo email (which I access from work -- same feeling as you). 

My home email is E ... Z ....

callie at critturs dot com

no spaces, use the punctuation *grin*  But when I reply to your email I'll send you my phone numbers so if your wife wants to quiz me she's welcome to -- my husband and I help folks all the time like this. 

EDITED to add:

Aha -- I took the zip code from your vet and searched the Chi Institute site -- wow -- between your proximity to Philly and the fact that you're in a quasi rural area you've got a HUGE HUGE HUGE choice of places to go (like 3-4 pages worth!!! whoo hoo!!)

that's good -- I can teach you and your wife what you need to know to make a good choice.  Trying to figure out HOW to pick one of these vets can be tricky, but wow -- you've got an excellent choice of folks pretty danged close to you.

I went to college with a girl from Cowtown, NJ -- so I'm no stranger to the area, actually.  *grin*  That and the fact that most of my summers of my misspent youth were at the Jersey Shore.  I'm from western NY State originally -- but I had no shortage of friends who picked on me because they said *I* had a weird accent -- and all along it was THEIR Philly accent I thot was hysterical!! LOL

I live in Salem county, Cowtown is just a few miles away. My "neighborhood" is actually pretty rural but we are not far from more developed areas. All my neighbors own acerage, most 10-20 (we have 10) with my 3 neighbors across the street all farmers with 300+ acres each much on my side of the road. Small by farm standards but fairly large by area standards.

I will see if I can find some time soon on my home computer to email you for more information.

 Everyone has given great advice and I second ruling out medical issues. Other than that I cannot stress enough how much your attitude and demeanor play a role. While my issues with Ari are NOTHING like yours, my own emotional state was negatively compounding the situation. I'm normally and anxious/emotional person and Ari fed off that like nothing else. By learning to be calmer myself, I noticed a direct result in Ari's own emotional state. Even if this issue is medical, the dog will still react to your own reactions and emotions. If your a calm person, your dog is more likely to view you as someone you can trust and also feel more comfortable (ie this situation is safe) with.

Best of luck!