Let Sleeping Dogs Lie??

jgln

Would you get rid of the dog?

***sigh***  No, I wouldn't rehome the dog.  I would try to work with her to change the behavior.

What kind of training do you do with her?  Have you ever heard of NILIF (Nothing in Life is free).  Basically its an exercise where she must do something for you to get what she wants.  Google it to learn more.  Ultimately it shows the dog that everything good in her life will come from you (and the others in the house).  She will learn that you (the one with opposable thumbs) are in charge, not her.  She may act like that because she thinks SHE is in charge.

Having said that however, has she had a vet check? 

Good luck!  I know you will get some good advice from others.

Yes, she has been to the vet on a regular basis for shots and checkup. When we found her it appears she had just been hit by a car. Her tail was broken and bleeding and she had some minor cuts. She had to have the tail cut down to about 1/3 but it is completly healed now. She does have this obsession with it though and usually when she gets excited will try and bite it. I think she does this too when she wants attention because she knows we will speak to her to stop or play with her to get her to stop.

We have trained her to sit and lay down for treats and always make her sit for them even to remove her leash. At one point we got her to jump through a hoop for treats but not for a while. But those are not really what you are talking about, more like teaching tricks.

This "mood" I describe only happens in the late evening. I will talk to my wife about what you said. She was brought into a house occupied by 2 cats and she has taken over the house from them, she is now working on our chickens outside (on leash). Another thing my wife does I disagree with is she gives her several rawhide bones to chew instead of just one. She says she will "disvalue" them if she has several. I think it just gives her more to "protect", not to mention I don't like the way it looks around the house.

She is such a nice dog otherwise. In the morning when she knows I am about to leave she rolls over for me to rub her belly and then follows me to the door. Do you think the belly rub is submissive or dominance?

jgln

Do you think the belly rub is submissive or dominance?

Who doesn't like a good belly rub?  LOL  She loves you.  I'm not real big on the dominance thing anymore.  We just all live together.  But, they need structure and boundaries; and they need to know where they fit in the love chain.  I say that, but dogs definately live with a "pack" mentality, and you and your wife needs to be the leader of the "pack."  In other words, she needs to understand that she doesn't rule the house, you and your wife do.  And all that can be shown to her without dominance.

Thank you for taking this girl in and giving her a loving home.  She needs you.

I meant her dominance, rolling over and saying "I will take my belly rub now!" LOL

Yeah she does love us, just a shame she looses her mind like that. I really think she is in another world when that happens and like a light switch she is back to tail wagging, gentleness in her eyes and affectionate licking.

Oh, for gosh sakes no.  Any one of my SIX german shepherds will roll over and ask for a belly rub.  Whether they get it or not is entirely up to me.

I agree she needs more training, and if that particular spot causes problems, perhaps an open door crate would make her feel safer.

I certainly wouldn't rehome a dog for something like this.

jgln

Do you think the belly rub is submissive or dominance?

I think she's just asking for a belly rub cause she likes them. However, in other situations it can be a sign of submissiveness. Dogs sometimes use it to show they mean no harm to other dogs. It's a pretty vulnerable position for them to put themselves in with another dog.

If you haven't already, I'd ask the vet to run a full thyroid panel on her. If you've ruled out any medical reason for this and it happens regularly, I'd try to video tape it and show it to your vet. It sounds scary to me and I'm sure it is to you and your wife. You could ask for a consult from a behaviorist but it might be hard to replicate what's happening.

jgln

I really think she is in another world when that happens and like a light switch

Honestly, I'm going to say this is very very like seizure activity -- you say this tends to happen at a **particular time of the evening** -- like between 10:00 p.m. and 1:00 a.m. perhaps??  PRIME time for seizures -- particularly hard to nail down petit mal type seizures.  Given the trauma it could easily be neural in origin.

I am **not** recommending you put this dog on heavy-duty meds.  Those are habit-forming and very hard on the body (and tend to cause greater problems down the road). 

Something I've had INCREDIBLE results with for something very similar is TCVM (Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine) - both acupuncture and Chinese herbals are incredibly helpful with seizures.  When we first took Kee Shu 4 years ago she was a MASS of weird little repetitive behaviors  and much of the time wasn't really "on this planet".  Between your description and the time of day, it seriously makes me think it's neurally related.  It may actually scare *her* that she responds that way ... hence the "I'm NO threat -- see I'll expose my belly to you" that follows. 

Dogs are ALWAYS dogs -- no matter what.  They may be opportunists "yes, maybe I'll get a belly rub too" -- but it's inate for them to try to self-correct something THEY know was "doggie rude" with an "I'm no threat" behavior. 

You don't say where you are -- but I'd recommend the Chi Institute website to find a vet near you who does TCVM.  it's complimentary therapy -- I'm NOT saying replace your vet.  Just see if this particular behavior is more medical than you think.  The exam they give is completely different -- literally unlike anything you've ever seen. 

The vets up at the University of FL vet school actually teach both acupuncture and Chinese herbals.  Even the vet behaviorist on staff uses acupuncture and TCVM to work on behaviors like this.  It WORKS. 

If you want to contact me for more information I'm glad to help

And btw ... when a tail is amputated they can experience something VERY similar to the phantom pain that amputees experience.

Also -- Cathy's idea of a thyroid panel is a SUPERB one -- but go for the one that will really tell you something.  Have your vet send it to either Michigan State or directly to Dr. Jean Dodds at Hemopet -- both do a breed-specific thyroid panel that will often reveal subtle things that other thyroid panels sent to a generic lab don't.  Those typical thyroid panels that go thru a regular lab simply go by a number -- they take the numbers from the dog's blood and just compare them generically to one chart.  So a chihuahua is compared to a rotte the same -- a whippet or jack russell is judged by exactly the same numbers as a St. Bernard or a bassett hound.

None of those are bad -- but they all vary widely as to metabolism .. and a breed-specific thyroid panel truly can expose things that regular thyroid panels don't

calliecritturs

I'm going to say this is very very like seizure activity

This is excatly what I was thinking, as well, especially because there could have been some major head trauma when she was hit by the car. It may also be the effects of traumatic brain injury, but not seizures, per se. Videotaping an episode (as someone suggested) can really help the vets and TCVM folks see and hear (important) what's happening.

Thank you for taking in this dog and taking care of her. She loves you--and wants lots of belly rubs! Smart girl!

We live in South New Jersey, USA.

Well, both our jobs are on VERY shaky grounds and spending a lot on her right now would be difficult. I guess it will do no harm to inquire about testing and get an opinion from the vet onher behavior. Vets don't have to power to withold a dog they may feel dangerous can they? Never know what opinion on her behavior they may have.

Yeah she probably is freightened. It is so odd when she sees our faces she doesn't just snap out of it quicker. I can see when she is under the table and doesn't know what just bumped into her. She has other strange habits especially with me. She gets VERY excited with me :-). My wife kids and asks what is so special with "Uncle Jimmy". When she rubs her belly she relaxes, when I do it before you know it she starts scratching her head with her rear paw, I often put my arm between the two afraid she will scratch her brains out (not literally). She also sneezes a lot when I pet her and play with her when she gets excited. Weird.

Maybe I contribute to her manner too. When she does this my wife try to calm her with the "Uncle Jimmy, It's Uncle Jimmy" which helps but I usually get angry and yell at her to stop which probably angers her in that state. I am just trying to let her know I am the alpha dog in the house. I have a hard time backing down too, especially to a dog. But I am not a violent person either, I like calm and quiet.

 The time of night is actually like 8-10, after 10 she usually goes upstairs with my wife to bed. The dog sleeps outside our closed door. I really think guarding her bones may be part of the behavior too. Maybe that and being in a light sleep state complicates matters.

Head trama? Maybe, I mean she was proably hit by a car and maybe being in a light sleep state brings out the brain trama issues. I will start with asking the vet at her next appointment.

I will have to try and post some pictures of her. Aside from the black tounge she looks more black lab then chow.  

jgln

I will have to try and post some pictures of her.

Oh, yes, we want to see pictures :-)

jgln

It is so odd when she sees our faces she doesn't just snap out of it quicker.

It may be that she's not recognizing you quickly until she hears your voices talking to her. That could be consistent with a head injury or other trauma from being hit by a car.

jgln

Well, both our jobs are on VERY shaky grounds and spending a lot on her right now would be difficult.

I totally get that! Here's info about UPenn's vet school-might be worth a call and often they are less expensive than for-profit animal hospitals/vets (and please know I'm not saying your vet isn't good--I'm just a resource geek sometimes :-). I looked the list of vet schools, and this one seems closest to South New Jersey. (We keep a list of all the vet schools in the US for the IMHA thread--'cause we often need the info at a moment's notice.) That said, I TOTALLY get the money thing--just wanted you to have the info so you can check it out any maybe get a free/low cost consult to start with.

University of Pennsylvania

School of Veterinary Medicine

Hospital: Matthew J. Ryan Veterinary Hospital (small animal)

39^th and Spruce Streets

Philadelphia, PA

http://www.vet.upenn.edu/

Thanks for the information, that is about 1/2 hour from my house. So far she has never acted agressive toward the vet or other people, at least until she can see them and tell we are not alarmed. Once she barked at a repair guy who had met her before but that was during the night and she could not tell who he was, after he was inside she was ok.

So again, if she went into that state while in the care of a vet do they have any authority to keep the dog and condem her as too dangerous? I just don't want to take chances and find out too late. To think I tried to give her away for not wanting the responsibility. She brings so much joy and entertainment into our lives now, well excet for the craziness here and there.

Kate and Callie have given you some great ideas. One thing I've also learned is it really helps to start keeping track of stuff like when did it all start? What time of day does it usually happen? How long does it last? How is she afterwards (hungry, tired, thirsty)? Does it happen every day?....etc., etc. It will save you and the vet a lot of time if you've already got the information handy. Most of us have been in the position when paying the high costs of numerous tests and procedures isn't feasible. Hopefully you'll find that the diagnosis and treatment are easier and less expensive than anticipated. Vets really do understand too, so don't be afraid to let them know your situation.

 I am not an expert any any stretch, but I had a lab came to me from a broken home with no kids around.  I had kids.  He would come up with his mouth open and ready to go if disturbed.  It was a training issue.  I wore my boots and would nudge him when he was asleep, until he got used to being disturbed and knew he was still safe.  Dogs do dream.  Maybe its reliving a really bad moment.  Still a training issue.  The crate sounds like a good idea anyway.  Every dog needs a safe place.