Let Sleeping Dogs Lie??

    • Silver

    I tried doing that in the begining, getting her used to us moving around her and such but lately she seems to be worse if anything. Yeah, I wear work boots too but at that time of night I am usually in slippers. But the thing is it is not all the time. Sometimes she will lay her head or body on my foot and when I move to get up she does nothing, every second week or two she about wants to rip us to pieces, then comes out of it. If it were all up to me I would try removing all her bones for one month and see if that changes her, maybe an instinct to protect her bones. Weird thing is we actually got her to bring them to us and let us take them from her mouth, but lately I am afraid to do so as she might flip out.

    I have been reading about the thiroid thing, may be worth eliminating anyway.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Are her bones right in the area she's sleeping/protecting? If so, I'd definitely try putting them away and see if that helps. It very well could be that she's resource guarding the bones. If you determine that's the problem, there are ways to work with her on that. My lab was a resource guarder too but we had great success with using "trade" with her.

    • Gold Top Dog

    jgln
    but lately I am afraid to do so as she might flip out.

      Dogs can smell fear.

    • Gold Top Dog

    cakana
    One thing I've also learned is it really helps to start keeping track of stuff

    Excellent recommendation, cakana! I'd include notes about the bones that are near her when an event happens (to help determine if it's resource guarding), along with how much lighting is on, what else is going on, along with all the things cakana listed, too. etc etc. Do you notice anything before an event happens that is an indicator? Is she always sleeping before it happens? In any event, you want to set her up for success, and removing the longer term chewing bones (giving biscuits every now and then instead, perhaps?) might be part of the success plan.

    If it's a brain injury issue (which could explain some of the vision things you've described), the training you do may be different from training with a pup that doesn't have TBI--for one, because their reactions/responses aren't necessarily consistent because of the brain injury. (Note: I'm not saying it is a brain injury, but it is a possibility if he got hit by a car. And it's so hard to know because you rescued her and didn't see what happened.)

    Do keep us posted--we're sending lots of positive energy.

    • Gold Top Dog

    jgln
    So again, if she went into that state while in the care of a vet do they have any authority to keep the dog and condem her as too dangerous? I just don't want to take chances and find out too late.

    I don't know this answer to that, but I would have this same worry. Because you're seeking medical treatment to diagnose the problem/find out why it's happening, perhaps that suffices? I would think the vets know how to take precautions, if she does have an episode, too. Perhaps others here can provide more definitive info??

    • Gold Top Dog

     It isn't likely, at all. Many, many dogs bite at the vet's office. Some dogs have to be sedated JUST for their shots and yearly exam. I had a dog for 6 years, who wore a muzzle EVERY TIME she walked into a vet's office, period, or she'd draw blood on somebody.

     

    Check the dangerous dog laws, in your area. Here, there is a very specific set of things that have to happen, before a dog is deemed dangerous.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Is the room you are watching TV in totally dark except for the TV on?  Willow used to do the same thing if I got up suddenly in a dark room.  Especially, when I first got her.  It was very bad then and she came at me twice.

    I have to leave a lamp on in the living room for her all she's all disoriented. 

    You might be onto something if she's under a coffee table or behind a couch with a bone.  I'd definately get those away from her in those situations. 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    PLEASE PLEASE consider the TCVM ***first*** -- you really don't need testing.  It's going to be super inconclusive with something like this.  EVERYTHING you are saying more and more says neural to me -- and so many things can contribute.

    Did you realize that even silly small things like the flickering of a television, very common household clearers, and even dog shampoos sold right at the grocery store - ALL THESE can cause seizures in one form or another.

    Very often seizures aren't the thrashing around/foaming at the mouth thing you'd expect.  Any time an animal is really "out of it" mentally -- where you can't easily just call their name quietly and have them look at you immediately -- that can be a seizure. 

    I can *NOT* stress enough this does *not* have to be expensive.  There are a ton of TCVM vets in Jersey (3 pages of them) -- from Cape May all the way north.  Because a lot of south/central Jersey is pretty much farm territory there are MORE TCVM vets there than you'd believe.  Please -- just go to that link http://www.tcvm.com -- go to the left hand side and plug in your zip code and see what you get.  Look also at the Pennsylvania list -- there might be someone just over the border that would work for you since you're so close to Philly.

    In  your written list of what's going on -- think further back in the day. 

    1.  Was the dog, that day, anywhere near a pine tree -- particularly close enough to get pine sap on it (or playing with pine cones).

    2.  Anybody clean that day with Pine Sol or any pine cleaner?

    3.  Anybody cook with rosemary that night?  or could the dog have gotten into rosemary (it's a pine related herb)

    4.  Did the dog have a bath that day?  get heartworm meds? flea meds? 

    5.  WAs the lawn fertilized?  mown? 

    6. Did your city spray for mosquitos or any kind of city spray or fly-over spray?  (you may not even know)

    7.  Did a *neighbor* have their lawn treated/mown/fertilized?

    8.  Is it a particular night of the week?  A particular TV show or commercial that may have been on (weird repetitive sounds, lights)

    9.  What phase of the moon was it?  Full moon?  nearly full?  New? 

    10. Is there any sign prior that the dog is very tired?  How about the dog's position?  It can even be related to the dog sleeping with it's head ON something, or laying in maybe a typical, but potentially neck-stressing position.  (or in a draft -- ANYTHING that might stress the cervical area).

    My next questions would be about where the dog lies -- you might want to try a crate JUST for late evening "chill out time" -- you can put in a nice blanket or a marrow bone ... keep it a "good place to be" -- but it's also a safer place maybe

    No vet is going to condemn a dog for something like this -- at least not a *decent* vet.  But I can promise you -- a TCVM vet is gong to take this seriously.  If you want to email me I can tell you pretty much what their costs might be and I suspect if they use herbs it could be a very easy not-expensive thing.

    My very last suggestion may seem overly simple.  But before you rise, have you tried calling her to come to you and having her "sit" in front of you?  In other words -- get her up and **moving** so you KNOW she's awake. 

    I would likely try simply re-arranging things first ... either make her a new "bed" or buy an inexpensive one but re-arrange things a bit.  First off -- I would either use a couple of baby gates (you can make them CHEAP with a slab of wooden lattice -- cut it in thirds and screw a piece of cheap molding to the top and bottom of each piece -- and suddenly you have three "baby gates" and you can prop them up or even hook/eye them together to make a 3-sided area that is a small "den" for her but provides a safety barrier until you work this out and find out the real cause.

    Make the bed seem like some new terrific thing for her -- don't segregate her far away from you ... but arrange it so she's ultimately behind the enclosure when she settles to sleep.  Then ... it will give you some bit of barrier for safety.

    But please -- try the TCVM.  There will be no big tests, no big expensive anything.  Just the cost of the initial vet visit (which will be a couple of hundred dollars but they will spend a couple of hours examining her AND giving treatment).  Beyond that will only be some herbs. 

    I'm going to ask Megan to jump in here -- Pirate seizes and often his seizures are nothing more than him acting "nervous" -- but they ARE seizures.  But some of his were very similar to this -- and the timetable was VERY close.  (and incidentally -- my "list" above?  a good share of those things were things she discovered triggered Pirate!  The rosemary in particular -- and there is rosemary in some dogfoods!)

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I found really weird that nobody has just suggested to give the dog a treat every time the owners stand up and this happen (and i'm not the most positive only member on this forum). That could make the dog think that food it's coming when they stand up

    Owners standing up = food, instead of owners standing up = alert/aggressive mode

    I agree that this might be a neurological issue but is an inexpensive way to try first just in case or while something else is being worked out

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer

    I found really weird that nobody has just suggested to give the dog a treat every time the owners stand up and this happen (and i'm not the most positive only member on this forum). That could make the dog think that food it's coming when they stand up

    Owners standing up = food, instead of owners standing up = alert/aggressive mode

    I agree that this might be a neurological issue but is an inexpensive way to try first just in case or while something else is being worked out

     

    River has had guarding issues since he was a puupy and one of his most prized possessions is his resting/sleeping spot!  If this is the issue with your dog you may want to try to call him/ lure him with a treat off his spot willingly instead of waking him without motivation.  That worked and still works for River and was suggested by many behaviorists and trainers.  Good luck!

    • Gold Top Dog

    jgln

    Yeah she probably is freightened. It is so odd when she sees our faces she doesn't just snap out of it quicker. I can see when she is under the table and doesn't know what just bumped into her. She has other strange habits especially with me. She gets VERY excited with me :-). My wife kids and asks what is so special with "Uncle Jimmy". When she rubs her belly she relaxes, when I do it before you know it she starts scratching her head with her rear paw, I often put my arm between the two afraid she will scratch her brains out (not literally). She also sneezes a lot when I pet her and play with her when she gets excited. Weird.

    If she is actually under the table part of it could be feeling cornered since she is in a somewhat enclosed area.  I second Espencer's idea of tossing at treat, or other high value object.  Another thing I might try though is if you know she is sleeping at your feet, letting her know in advance before trying to walk right past her.  Maybe try calling her name in a sing song voice and when you see she has waken and looks up finishing up by telling her you are going to move now.  This will also help you break down if this is a behavior that has to do with her being startled out of sleep and being on edge or being well aware it is you but trying to guard that area.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Krissim Klaw

    jgln

    Yeah she probably is freightened. It is so odd when she sees our faces she doesn't just snap out of it quicker. I can see when she is under the table and doesn't know what just bumped into her. She has other strange habits especially with me. She gets VERY excited with me :-). My wife kids and asks what is so special with "Uncle Jimmy". When she rubs her belly she relaxes, when I do it before you know it she starts scratching her head with her rear paw, I often put my arm between the two afraid she will scratch her brains out (not literally). She also sneezes a lot when I pet her and play with her when she gets excited. Weird.

    If she is actually under the table part of it could be feeling cornered since she is in a somewhat enclosed area.  I second Espencer's idea of tossing at treat, or other high value object.  Another thing I might try though is if you know she is sleeping at your feet, letting her know in advance before trying to walk right past her.  Maybe try calling her name in a sing song voice and when you see she has waken and looks up finishing up by telling her you are going to move now.  This will also help you break down if this is a behavior that has to do with her being startled out of sleep and being on edge or being well aware it is you but trying to guard that area.

     

    These are the suggestions I would go with, too.

    Have you ever been woken up from a deep sleep and been confused/scared when you woke up? Not knowing where you were, etc.? Or startled when you were woken up suddenly? That would be my first guess about what's happening here - Occam's razor and all, going for the simplest explanation.

    My dog has similar reactions - he startles very easily, so sometimes his first reaction when he's woken up suddenly is to growl and snap. Usually this is because he's sleeping literally at someone's feet, they don't notice, and then they start to move, at which point he's suddenly awakened and afraid of being stepped on. So, he's not allowed to sleep at people's feet - he has 3 very comfy dog beds, and they're positioned so they are near people but not in accidental-stepping range, so he doesn't get startled like that when he's woken up.

    If he's sleeping somewhere else and we need to move by him, we always wake him up vocally first - "Rascal, scoot!" - and then walk where we need to go. If we didn't wake him up, we'd definitely have some nipped ankles before either of us realized what was going on. Not because he's evil or trying to hurt us or even guarding his sleeping spot, but just because he panics when he's woken up suddenly, and his panic response is to chase away any "threat." A second or two later, after he fully realizes what's happening, he's no longer growly/snappy, but it does take him a couple of seconds to get a handle on what is happening around him.

    I hope that makes sense! It doesn't sound like your dog is "mean" or aggressive, just that you might need to be a bit more careful not to startle the dog accidentally. A lot of dogs are afraid of feet because of experiences being kicked or stepped on, even by mistake, so humans getting up and walking around while they're sleeping/lying down can be intimidating for them.

    • Gold Top Dog

    jgln

    I tried doing that in the begining, getting her used to us moving around her and such but lately she seems to be worse if anything. Yeah, I wear work boots too but at that time of night I am usually in slippers. But the thing is it is not all the time. Sometimes she will lay her head or body on my foot and when I move to get up she does nothing, every second week or two she about wants to rip us to pieces, then comes out of it. If it were all up to me I would try removing all her bones for one month and see if that changes her, maybe an instinct to protect her bones. Weird thing is we actually got her to bring them to us and let us take them from her mouth, but lately I am afraid to do so as she might flip out.

    I have been reading about the thiroid thing, may be worth eliminating anyway.

    If you are afraid to take her bones, and she's only doing this when they are present, it's an issue.  (Great book to read: "Mine! A Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs" by Jean Donaldson.

    If this is periodic behavior, not happening only when she has bones, then it is possible that she is guarding space (her resting spot under the table) or YOU (as in not wanting you to move), or it could be seizure activity related to her injury or even to the TV set, which sets some animals off.  Definitely worth telling your vet about - and the suggestion to track her activity, when, where, what she is otherwise doing at the time, etc. is valuable information.

    • Gold Top Dog
    calliecritturs
    I'm going to ask Megan to jump in here -- Pirate seizes and often his seizures are nothing more than him acting "nervous" -- but they ARE seizures.  But some of his were very similar to this -- and the timetable was VERY close.  (and incidentally -- my "list" above?  a good share of those things were things she discovered triggered Pirate!  The rosemary in particular -- and there is rosemary in some dogfoods!)

    I'm here, I'm here! Sorry! Yes, I have an epi dog, who is sort of 'special'.

    I've only skimmed, but keep in mind that some dogs seem to be temporarily blinded after an episode of seizure activity - not Pirate, but I've heard of it happening. That could explain why she responds when someone says your name.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thanks for jumping in -- I hadn't even gotten to email you yet -- it's been rushed around here.