Eight Rules for Punishment (and why we shouldn't use them)

miranadobe

Where did you get this idea?

miranadobe

Do you show your dogs this way

espencer

Which one should we choose?

Corinthian

miranadobe

Where did you get this idea?

Knowledge of anatomy.

 

miranadobe

Do you show your dogs this way

They are trained. They don't require leash guidance

HI

Due to time pressures i will deal with each case one at a time. Case 1 is Luci my oldest poodle. Man this one was hard to sort out.

"MO, always, the very first thing to be sure the dog has no physical problem (hips, eyes, cut foot, anything).  Second, determine if something came in to view that might have startled or frightened the dog, i.e. consider "intelligent disobedience" before you assign blame to the dog for being stubborn or willful. "

You got it in this phrase. The second hint was that she is Speyed. With the help of a Vet Behavourist we found that she had two developing noise phobias, one was to road noise and the second to the noise around dog trials. Early Speyed dogs show this behaviour much more than entire dogs.It took a wee while to get to this point. Was it her feet, was it that my wife had been in and out of hospital? Was it the heat? The cold?

I have to tell you that many well meaning people suggested making her that she was being stubborn.:( I shudder at what might have happened.

I spent around 8 months slowly C+T and counter conditioning. It has worked well and she is very well adjusted. She has returned to her very exuberant best.

corvus

The difference that bothered me was the way she behaved when she thought I was going to punish her. It was so pronounced after I got Kivi, and now Erik. Kivi and Erik are not aware that people can be mean. If I shout at them in frustration they don't care. If I try to interrupt them with a loud noise, they don't really care. They don't care if I use the "this means business" tone. What am I going to do to them? I can't intimidate them into behaving because they are not scared of me in the slightest. I can push them, scold them, grab them, drag them, and hold them back and it won't result in a decrease in any behaviours. Penny cared if I meant business. Why? Because she knew that sometimes I did mean things to her.

  I have only just begun to work my way through this thread but I had to comment on this. I suspect that Penny's issue was that she was an extremely soft dog and I think you are mistaking her soft temperament for learned behavior. My guess would be that she would have acted that way regardless of training methods you had used on her. I know dogs who are so soft that they can't handle any sort of pressure, even unintended pressure and it is not because they have been corrected or mistreated. IME Corgis tend to be prone to overly "squishy", very soft temperaments.

  It is also worth saying that dogs who have been trained with "all positive" will also shut down due to stress and it looks no different than a force trained dog shutting down. I see it fairly often with positively trained competition obedience dogs - the dogs will stop working, try to leave the ring and look very stressed. The reason may be different (or may not be) but the behavior looks the same regardless. Poor training is poor training and can cause stress to the dog even if you don't use punishment.

AgileGSD

  I have only just begun to work my way through this thread but I had to comment on this. I suspect that Penny's issue was that she was an extremely soft dog and I think you are mistaking her soft temperament for learned behavior. My guess would be that she would have acted that way regardless of training methods you had used on her. I know dogs who are so soft that they can't handle any sort of pressure, even unintended pressure and it is not because they have been corrected or mistreated. IME Corgis tend to be prone to overly "squishy", very soft temperaments.

I have been arguing against punishment, but I have to agree. I have a very soft dog, and even though he is trained without corrections, he still considers the "this means business" tone, grabbing, pushing, dragging, and shouting (at something other than himself) aversive and scary, and can easily cause him to shut down. For him, I would consider ALL of those things punishments, because they scare the crap out of him, so I do not utilize them as part of training (or part of his life if I can help it). I've never purposefully been mean to him, but he still thinks getting shoved or grabbed pretty shocking and unpleasant. For another dog, who did not find those things unpleasant, I probably wouldn't be so hyper vigilant about making sure they did not happen. It's not that he thinks because I pushed him I will be 'mean' to him or deliver a larger punishment - he thinks me pushing him is 'mean' in and of itself.

tenna

I have been arguing against punishment, but I have to agree. I have a very soft dog, and even though he is trained without corrections, he still considers the "this means business" tone, grabbing, pushing, dragging, and shouting (at something other than himself) aversive and scary, and can easily cause him to shut down. For him, I would consider ALL of those things punishments, because they scare the crap out of him, so I do not utilize them as part of training (or part of his life if I can help it). I've never purposefully been mean to him, but he still thinks getting shoved or grabbed pretty shocking and unpleasant. For another dog, who did not find those things unpleasant, I probably wouldn't be so hyper vigilant about making sure they did not happen. It's not that he thinks because I pushed him I will be 'mean' to him or deliver a larger punishment - he thinks me pushing him is 'mean' in and of itself.

  That is exactly it. Dogs can interpret threatening gestures regardless of training background. For a very soft dog the threatening gesture is enough to bring about a fear reaction, flight response or at the very least very submissive body language . Some dogs are especially sensitive to their owners - they don't so much care if strangers seem angry but are upset if their owner does or if it seems directed towards them. Others don't deal well with any sort of "threat" - waving arms, yelling, etc even if it isn't directed at them. On another forum that I have been in for years, a member has a dog who is so sensitive and overly soft that he has a meltdown if he sees another dog being physically corrected, even though he has not been physcially corrected. Soft dogs are often very misleading in their actions, which causes many people to take on the "he have have been beaten" attitude because it isn't uncommon for them to cower, run away, cringe, pull back, etc.

spiritdogs

How many dogs, exactly, have you used this method with?  Could you tell me their breeds, please?  No method works on every dog - isn't that the mantra you use against the +R perspective?  So, if this method did fail you, what would be your alternatives?  Pulling is one of the most prevalent problems that people come to trainers about, so the more information you provide, the more helpful this is.

I was thinking that if it was meant to be an adolescent male lab and it gave up that easily i would give it back to the breeder :)

I wouldn't mind a few more details too please.

in ten minutes i can stop most pullers using R+ techniques and i don't allow self rewarding but it requires a little more than that...

espencer

If you could use this method you could "dispatch" dog owners back to their homes as fast as they were coming

I am not sure about what you are saying here. would you like to elaborate?

AgileGSD

  That is exactly it. Dogs can interpret threatening gestures regardless of training background. For a very soft dog the threatening gesture is enough to bring about a fear reaction, flight response or at the very least very submissive body language . Some dogs are especially sensitive to their owners - they don't so much care if strangers seem angry but are upset if their owner does or if it seems directed towards them. Others don't deal well with any sort of "threat" - waving arms, yelling, etc even if it isn't directed at them. On another forum that I have been in for years, a member has a dog who is so sensitive and overly soft that he has a meltdown if he sees another dog being physically corrected, even though he has not been physcially corrected. Soft dogs are often very misleading in their actions, which causes many people to take on the "he have have been beaten" attitude because it isn't uncommon for them to cower, run away, cringe, pull back, etc.

I think whether a dog is soft or not can be affected by the way the dog is trained - my dog has definitely gotten more confident and less soft as his confidence training with the clicker has gone on, but I think he was predisposed to be a soft dog based on genetics/breeding, and I think that that is true for a lot of the really soft dogs that shut down at the slightest thing. My dog will always be a soft dog even with positive reinforcement only trainimg. Someone shouting will still greatly upset him, getting a toe stepped on will still cause him to shut down, and getting pushed will still cause him to lose his trust in that person. I think overusing punishments is detrimental to a soft dog and can definitely make them worse, but my dog was going to be soft regardless of whether he got corrected.

tenna

I think whether a dog is soft or not can be affected by the way the dog is trained - my dog has definitely gotten more confident and less soft as his confidence training with the clicker has gone on, but I think he was predisposed to be a soft dog based on genetics/breeding, and I think that that is true for a lot of the really soft dogs that shut down at the slightest thing. My dog will always be a soft dog even with positive reinforcement only trainimg.

Hi

I am floating a view of mine here. I think that we sometimes use catergories for our dogs that really get in the way of dealing with our dog issues. The two words that i really have an issue with are "Soft" and "Nerves". My now deceased lab was not Soft or had much in the way of Nerves yet wouldn't go through an agility tunnel, he was petrified of it. So i had two solutions. But giving him labels didn't supply the solutions.

 Luci is physically quite sensitive. If i touch her toes in heeling (it never happens now) that would be that for a couple of weeks. For ages she seemed to have "Poor Nerve". But she had a noise phobia. The issue is the noise. It can be made better, we just start at a different place. She hated people yelling at their dogs, correction chains being activated. Yet she in many ways is a very confident out going lively dog. Oh and i think that she is outrageous...

Sam appears to be a lot like my old Lab personality wise, and he is. I have no idea of what his pain tolerance is, and i don't want to find out. If i touch his toes in heeling, i have instant bounce back. He couldn't care less out most noises, but at night when we are tracking he will get upset by human voices in the distance.

So (and please forgive me :)))) at the expense of sounding very Behavourist, the issue is the Behaviour in front of us.. I will try not to repeat this, it will destroy my reputation...

AgileGSD

I suspect that Penny's issue was that she was an extremely soft dog and I think you are mistaking her soft temperament for learned behavior. My guess would be that she would have acted that way regardless of training methods you had used on her. I know dogs who are so soft that they can't handle any sort of pressure, even unintended pressure and it is not because they have been corrected or mistreated. IME Corgis tend to be prone to overly "squishy", very soft temperaments.

She was a soft dog, but not as soft as Kivi is. My partner growled at Kivi once and the poor boy avoided him like the plague for the rest of the evening. Kivi cried when my mother's cat hissed at him. He withers when other dogs snap at him. He throws himself on the ground and whines if he's not entirely confident that he's doing what I want him to in training, even though I only train him with rewards. He's a big baby! Granted, Penny was more sensitive than he is, but I think they are comparable, and you'll just have to take my word for it. Erik is not soft by any stretch of the imagination.

It is also worth saying that dogs who have been trained with "all positive" will also shut down due to stress and it looks no different than a force trained dog shutting down. I see it fairly often with positively trained competition obedience dogs - the dogs will stop working, try to leave the ring and look very stressed. The reason may be different (or may not be) but the behavior looks the same regardless. Poor training is poor training and can cause stress to the dog even if you don't use punishment.

Agreed, as evidenced by Kivi's reaction to a little frustration. I guess the defining moment to me was how Kivi did handle a "physical correction" when someone gave him one. He was thoroughly shocked. Just sat back and stared at the person for a few seconds. He just didn't know people did things like that. I just thought how glad I was that he was shocked rather than slinking away like Penny always did.

AgileGSD

It is also worth saying that dogs who have been trained with "all positive" will also shut down due to stress and it looks no different than a force trained dog shutting down. I see it fairly often with positively trained competition obedience dogs - the dogs will stop working, try to leave the ring and look very stressed. The reason may be different (or may not be) but the behavior looks the same regardless. Poor training is poor training and can cause stress to the dog even if you don't use punishment.

This is one of the big issues facing trialllists. It is hell for the dog and hell for the handler. True punishment for the dog. Escape/Avoidance behaviour is a sign the the experience for the dog is Aversive.

I am not going to go on about the force trained dog, as it isn't my interest., but i think some R+ dogs get into trouble for several reasons

1) The atmosphere at trials is pretty stressful and the handler is stressed. This is so strange to the dog . You can mitigate strongly against it without resorting to leash popping corrections. The solution is actually the handler not the dog. We do some new stuff in our group to help. Putting a dog into drive is a real band aid in this environment.

2) It is possible that dogs who shouldn't trial do trial with R+. You need to proof and check proof and check. It took me 2 weeks of minimal effort to teach my Luci how to do SD. It has taken months of proofing so that she is confident and unphased by common distractions.

3) Stress from the complete removal of reinforcement. If you are only food training your dog, now is the time to reinforce your dog with a bit of play, some looniness, a rub or two. All of this can happen in the ring. So many people seem to back chain and rush like mad people out of the ring to jackpot... way too little way too late for many dogs.

4) Raising the criterea too high. I don't know but i would be tempted if mock trials were not available too me to withdraw about 1/2 way through the very first trial and jackpot with a huge game or food.

5) Over cranking the dog. Complete removal of food was an idea to make experiments work. It really bounces on you with many dogs. Motivation is a two sided hill.

 Just a few thoughts. I don't go at all for the idea that we need to chuck in a few punishments so that the dog can handle some punishment. Prefer to get rid of the punishment and learn to control the environment and reshape the dog's view of it. You can.

 ^  I agree with all of the above reasons, but would like to add one, which gets back to what Agile was saying about temperament - I've seen a lot of people doing training with their dogs that the dog simply doesn't enjoy.  It may enjoy it to a point in training because there is constant reward and praise and management of the environment, but as important as it is to proof dogs for trial, I think it's just as important to really step back and consider what the DOG makes of it all.  If it takes so much effort to train and proof for trial so the dog doesn't shut down, is the dog really cut out for it?  These dogs I see, they are not owned by novices, they are owned by people who have trained dogs all their lives, you'd think they would recognize when to throw in the towel but they keep plugging away while their dog looks bored as a gourd at best, under a lot of anxiety and shutting down at worst.  I know someone who trained for a long time for a certain obedience discipline and the dog did "well" in training (I say "well" in quotes because the execution of the skills was often perfect, but the dog wasn't exactly working for the fun of it).  The dog repeatedly shut down in trial.  I was taping a trial once and the women next to me were making comments, didn't realize I knew the person in the ring, and I remember them saying "it's as if this dog isn't even owned by this handler."  This is a dog trained 100% positive her entire life.  But it just proves my point that you can't pick and choose when these anecdotes support the type of training and when they don't.  The issue is not positive vs. punishment, the issue was that the DOG did not have the right temperament for that activity.  No amount of positive training helped, and in fact the dog just got worse.  After some time off, the owner picked a new activity to try with her dog.  The new activity is actually more difficult and for many dogs more stressful, but for this dog, this is what she should have been doing all along because this is what the DOG enjoys doing.

Kenya is a good example of this.  She LOVES Rally obedience.  I find Rally a little "blah", but she loves it, so we do it.  To be honest, I never really had to do much proofing for trial.  We did one match and it was more for me because I had never done a dog competition of *any* sort before.  It turned out the match we went to was not even the same rules as the competition we'd been training for (we trained AKC at the time and this was an APDT match), but my dog actually did better than the other dogs who had actually been training under those rules.  I have always found it strange, since Kenya can be quite skittish and is very affected by her environment, but she has always loved to compete in Rally.  I, however, love Schutzhund.  So, I trained her for SchH obedience and figured she could do the BH and maybe even the OB1 routine if I can teach her retrieves.  She was ready for the BH - she can do all of the skills and do them perfectly well enough to pass - but I can tell she just doesn't enjoy this type of work so I have never put her on the trial field, and now when I take her to SchH club we do Rally stuff when it's her turn for obedience.