Eight Rules for Punishment (and why we shouldn't use them)

 I agree with Leisje - if the dog enjoys the sport, has had good training and been well socialized to being around other dosg and people, it shouldn't take excessive proofing to ensure the dog can perform in the ring. I have seen the same stuff that Leisje mentioned with dogs trained with dogs trained with positive methods. Sometimes it is the training, sometimes it is the dog. In obedience, I think a lot of positive trainers make the mistake of talking to their dog too much in training and then the dog stresses at trials because to the dog, it seems that the handler isn't giving the right cues. With a soft dog (like it or not, there are temperament differences in dogs) this may cause the dog to totally shut down. And sometimes the dog just isn't ready, stresses out in the ring but comes close to managing a Q, so the owner keeps entering, the dog keeps stressing and it turns into a bad cycle.

 Generally there are no matches for agility, obedience or rally in my area. I rarely may go to a run thru at the training club but usually only if I'm going to be there any way. I don't take my dogs to many group training classes either but I will take them when I am teaching classes and use them to demo and practice a few minutes after. I don't have any extreme proofing system, I just train them to do the behaviors they need to do. I don't talk to them in heel, I vary the rewards they get while they are working and I don't let them practice being wrong. I take them out and about a lot, so they practice here and there. I work on drive building a lot when they are young and also teach them tricks. Every puppy I have had in recent times has gotten to come to work with me at a dog place. We practice agility in my backyard, usually with multiple dogs out in the little yard waiting their turn (makes them pretty excited to come play!). Dogs of my breed naturally want to focus on their people, which makes them very well suited for performance but I also train in a way that builds their desire to focus on me and work with me.

 It really is a combination of the dog and the training, not just that X method produces dogs who will be well adjusted and happy workers and dogs who act nervous, shy or scared must have been trained with Y method.

Liesje

I, however, love Schutzhund.  So, I trained her for SchH obedience and figured she could do the BH and maybe even the OB1 routine if I can teach her retrieves.  She was ready for the BH - she can do all of the skills and do them perfectly well enough to pass - but I can tell she just doesn't enjoy this type of work so I have never put her on the trial field, and now when I take her to SchH club we do Rally stuff when it's her turn for obedience.

Few are the judges nowadays that will say NO to a dog that should not be trained.  I see far too many dogs pass their BH or Brevet when they really don't have what it takes.  Specially for such a sport, merely having the skills is not enough... get another dog.

Liesje

Personally I don't like "nagging" dogs.  If I'm going to use some form of punishment or aversive device, than I'd rather actually give corrections than allow the dog to constantly be pulling against me and (supposedly) self-correcting.  For some dogs, even a prong collar does not work as a self-correcting device, ie. if you want it to work to stop pulling you have to actually correct the dog yourself.  However I will admit that my personal preference has everything to do with the individual dog (I feel like a broken record here...).  I think for a lot of dogs, the head halter, or I-collar, or choke shoelace, or the front clip harness is enough on its own.  But for some dogs, and certainly *my* dog, it does nothing but nag nag nag at the dog and just makes the oppositional reflex stronger.  I personally will choose using a prong and giving corrections with it over using a head-halter.  My dog understands the former more quickly and enjoys himself a lot more when the boundaries are very clearly defined at the beginning so he understands what is desired and what is not acceptable because of what *I* am showing him, and not being left to figure it out himself.

Funny, I always thought that the purpose of a prong collar was to allow the dog to self correct, and that it should not be used for corrections.  No one is suggesting that any device that merely "nags" at a dog is effective.  It is the training that's effective, and the stepping on a leash routine is merely for safety - giving the handler time to reinforce an alternative, such as "sit" - not to use that alone as a training mechanism.  As many of you know, I'm not prone to long posts, but perhaps I should have elaborated... Also, head halters are for guidance not for corrections.  I don't know any trainer who corrects dogs with a head collar in the traditional sense of what a correction is.

AgileGSD

Generally there are no matches for agility, obedience or rally in my area. I rarely may go to a run thru at the training club but usually only if I'm going to be there any way. I don't take my dogs to many group training classes either but I will take them when I am teaching classes and use them to demo and practice a few minutes after. I don't have any extreme proofing system, I just train them to do the behaviors they need to do. I don't talk to them in heel, I vary the rewards they get while they are working and I don't let them practice being wrong. I take them out and about a lot, so they practice here and there. I work on drive building a lot when they are young and also teach them tricks. Every puppy I have had in recent times has gotten to come to work with me at a dog place. We practice agility in my backyard, usually with multiple dogs out in the little yard waiting their turn (makes them pretty excited to come play!). Dogs of my breed naturally want to focus on their people, which makes them very well suited for performance but I also train in a way that builds their desire to focus on me and work with me.

That's pretty much exactly what I do, and I do use positive methods while doing it.  I do not talk excessively to my dogs, I use clear, concise cues that they understand because they have been taught by association what the words mean.  I guess I have seen a lot of traditional trainers say almost nothing to their dogs, and correct them excessively, which results in problems, too.  There are extremes on both sides of the fence.

By the way, you do have a good proofing system - you practice in novel locations.  

spiritdogs

Funny, I always thought that the purpose of a prong collar was to allow the dog to self correct, and that it should not be used for corrections.  No one is suggesting that any device that merely "nags" at a dog is effective.  It is the training that's effective, and the stepping on a leash routine is merely for safety - giving the handler time to reinforce an alternative, such as "sit" - not to use that alone as a training mechanism.  As many of you know, I'm not prone to long posts, but perhaps I should have elaborated... Also, head halters are for guidance not for corrections.  I don't know any trainer who corrects dogs with a head collar in the traditional sense of what a correction is.

 Self correction for pulling is a use of the prong collar but certainly not the purpose. The purpose if that it provides more effective correction than a choke collar and doesn't require much force on the handler's part.

  For many dogs, head collars offer a constant "correction" regardless of what the handler is doing.

spiritdogs

That's pretty much exactly what I do, and I do use positive methods while doing it.  I do not talk excessively to my dogs, I use clear, concise cues that they understand because they have been taught by association what the words mean.  I guess I have seen a lot of traditional trainers say almost nothing to their dogs, and correct them excessively, which results in problems, too.  There are extremes on both sides of the fence.

By the way, you do have a good proofing system - you practice in novel locations.  

 I use positive methods as well which vary depending on the dog I'm working with. certainly socialization and practicing in many places is good for "proofing". I also do all kinds of stuff like step over the dog, jump up and down and the such. What I meant by not going to extreme lengths to proof is that I don't go to match after match after match and I don't enter trails so I can excuse myself midway to leave the ring and reward the dog. If I had a dog who was so stressed by the trial environment that I had to do such things to make him think it was fun, I would probably stop trialing that dog.

spiritdogs

Funny, I always thought that the purpose of a prong collar was to allow the dog to self correct, and that it should not be used for corrections.

I guess it could be used that way but I don't really see the point.  *If* I'm going to use such a device or corrections, then *I* will be the one giving the corrections as I see fit, not letting the dog correct itself.

AgileGSD

What I meant by not going to extreme lengths to proof is that I don't go to match after match after match and I don't enter trails so I can excuse myself midway to leave the ring and reward the dog. If I had a dog who was so stressed by the trial environment that I had to do such things to make him think it was fun, I would probably stop trialing that dog.

Exactly.  What is to be gained by training and trialing such a dog?  Just boosting the owners ego?  Trying to make the dog look good on paper?  If the dog is stressed by it, just let it be a pet or find something else it enjoys.  Coke is my favorite dog but does he do training and trials?  Heck no, he likes being a pet.

AgileGSD

What I meant by not going to extreme lengths to proof is that I don't go to match after match after match and I don't enter trails so I can excuse myself midway to leave the ring and reward the dog. If I had a dog who was so stressed by the trial environment that I had to do such things to make him think it was fun, I would probably stop trialing that dog.

I guess this is where being around the other side of the world makes a difference.:) Our first exercise in UD is the seekback. It is normal for the dog to have to cross into another dogs ring. The rings are 15M x 45M. Our SD article isn't cute little dumb bells, they are tubes and squares of leather wood and metal. Often dogs in the next ring pass within a foot to 18 inches of the dog working the SD. Our signals exercises span the ring and take over 2 minutes. Even at CD level the about turns can be left and right. The figure 8 is built into the heeling. SFE at any level is a stand on the move.

Our temperature range varies form below zero centigrade to our heat temp which is 35 degrees centigrade. The grass cover varies enormously and so does the ground.

So i have excused myself a couple of times so that i don't burn my dog forever, has worked for me. I think that she is one of the more enthusiastic dogs going around, and she doesn't give too many much room at open level week in week out. I certainly don't ever hang around the ring if i am not getting the right behaviour i am out of there...

I think it is kind of  funny that we expect our dogs to  be switched on to us, but not care less about new enviormental factors. Well many of my breed do, but are very easy to proof. It is almost a charecteristic rather than a charecter flaw. The line that many of use used here had a US foundation sire. Dam nice dog. Strange that many of them are showing better working potential than some show line GSDs..:)

AgileGSD

if the dog enjoys the sport, has had good training and been well socialized to being around other dosg and people, it shouldn't take excessive proofing to ensure the dog can perform in the ring. I have seen the same stuff that Leisje mentioned with dogs trained with dogs trained with positive methods. Sometimes it is the training, sometimes it is the dog. In obedience, I think a lot of positive trainers make the mistake of talking to their dog too much in training and then the dog stresses at trials because to the dog, it seems that the handler isn't giving the right cues. With a soft dog (like it or not, there are temperament differences in dogs) this may cause the dog to totally shut down. And sometimes the dog just isn't ready, stresses out in the ring but comes close to managing a Q, so the owner keeps entering, the dog keeps stressing and it turns into a bad cycle.

I think we may be talking in x purposes. But i would give the talking too muh to the dog to all trainers of all dispostions. At least very confusing. Everything else i would have to agree with. I would add in this bit "and the owner stresses which stresses the dog".

AgileGSD

just train them to do the behaviors they need to do. I don't talk to them in heel, I vary the rewards they get while they are working and I don't let them practice being wrong. I take them out and about a lot, so they practice here and there. I work on drive building a lot when they are young and also teach them tricks. Every puppy I have had in recent times has gotten to come to work with me at a dog place. We practice agility in my backyard, usually with multiple dogs out in the little yard waiting their turn (makes them pretty excited to come play!). Dogs of my breed naturally want to focus on their people, which makes them very well suited for performance but I also train in a way that builds their desire to focus on me and work with me.

well we have near agreement here . I work on drive building a heap. Yes i know i have cute little poodles and they don't have drive... Oh yeah!!!

I would totally agree with your last statement, except that the breed is poodles.:)

The main difference is that i need to make sure early that dogs your size don't seem like huge mountains, that judges when they lean over don't seem itimidating, and that we proof the many variations of the exercises so that there aren't a whole lot of suprises.

I have lost quals on ;;;

Luci picking up  a bottle top used as a marker in SD and throwing it in the air and starting to play with it

Returning a twig  in Seekback that i had stood on..

Freezing on the directed jumping because two dogs were running across the ring perimeter. No not out of fear, but how she was going to play with them without me noticing i think. Tail was fully erect.

Picking up a piece of paper rather than the glove

Breaking in the stays becuase we had stand ins, and one of the stand ins corrected her dog.

Having a crack at the birds rather than the seek back

Missing the sit in the end of signals...

You have to proof.If i don't i punish me and my dog.

Liesje

AgileGSD

What I meant by not going to extreme lengths to proof is that I don't go to match after match after match and I don't enter trails so I can excuse myself midway to leave the ring and reward the dog. If I had a dog who was so stressed by the trial environment that I had to do such things to make him think it was fun, I would probably stop trialing that dog.

 

Exactly.  What is to be gained by training and trialing such a dog?  Just boosting the owners ego?  Trying to make the dog look good on paper?  If the dog is stressed by it, just let it be a pet or find something else it enjoys.  Coke is my favorite dog but does he do training and trials?  Heck no, he likes being a pet.

That's something I totally agree with.  I don't know whether Sioux would have liked trials, I think so.  But, she is so much better in her role as a therapy dog and non-profit ambassador that I can't imagine her doing anything else.  Every dog is good at something and I find that it's better to find out what that is, and do it, than to keep trying to fit the square canine into the round hole.  One of the saddest sights I ever saw was at an agility class.  Golden Retriever, very under-socialized, week after week being asked to go through, or (worse) over, obstacles which he was absolutely terrified of.  That dog wanted to be the pet of a quiet adult and go for walks in the country, and here he was in a cold ring full of dogs that terrified him, equipment that terrified him, and an instructor who should have returned the woman's money and advised her to work on building the dog's confidence in slower increments.  It was heartbreaking.

spiritdogs

.  Every dog is good at something and I find that it's better to find out what that is, and do it, than to keep trying to fit the square canine into the round hole.  One of the saddest sights I ever saw was at an agility class.  Golden Retriever, very under-socialized, week after week being asked to go through, or (worse) over, obstacles which he was absolutely terrified of.  That dog wanted to be the pet of a quiet adult and go for walks in the country, and here he was in a cold ring full of dogs that terrified him, equipment that terrified him, and an instructor who should have returned the woman's money and advised her to work on building the dog's confidence in slower increments.  It was heartbreaking.

I have seen similar sights. Dogs that have just lost it and aren't interested any more, or were never interested and or are scared. I think that many handlers have the idea that just some how  miracle will happen and the dog will Q. The hassle is that sometimes they do.

 Part of it is selection. If i want to trial a dog i need a dog that is very up, very confident. Just as well that confident brats and i get on pretty well :)

I think though having said that, that problems can arise that are fixable. The first part of getting any noise phobia right for example is realising that it may not fix. You may need to walk away. I was literally within one trial saying " no no way" and Luci turned around and did a super bouncy 194. She really hasn't looked back since. The super bouncy was really important to me. I will pull my dogs forever if they appear not to enjoy it.

Another issue in Agility is that apparent fear in my breed can be as minor as paw sensitivity of the surfaces used. Getting the nail length right and using some kind of pad protection goes a long way.

My Cadbury did his last trial (tracking ) at 14 1/2. Now agreed most dogs of his age and breed can barely move. He was still bouncing up and down and could be a handful.

I think that an area of concern for me, and i do see it in my breed, is the idea that the dogs should some how fly through with very little training, proofing or reinforcement. It hardly ever happens. That is setting the dog up for non contigent punishment.

You

spiritdogs

That's something I totally agree with.  I don't know whether Sioux would have liked trials, I think so.  But, she is so much better in her role as a therapy dog and non-profit ambassador that I can't imagine her doing anything else.  Every dog is good at something and I find that it's better to find out what that is, and do it, than to keep trying to fit the square canine into the round hole.  One of the saddest sights I ever saw was at an agility class.  Golden Retriever, very under-socialized, week after week being asked to go through, or (worse) over, obstacles which he was absolutely terrified of.  That dog wanted to be the pet of a quiet adult and go for walks in the country, and here he was in a cold ring full of dogs that terrified him, equipment that terrified him, and an instructor who should have returned the woman's money and advised her to work on building the dog's confidence in slower increments.  It was heartbreaking.

 I have seen that too, along with dogs who are just not physically sound enough or in good enough shape to be doing agility. I was in class for awhile where two separate dogs had serious jumping issues and in both cases, I thought the dog had a structural problem (both would come up lame regularly but no one else seemed to notice) that was preventing it from jumping properly. The other thing that drives me crazy that I see too much of in agility is dogs who repeatedly run off in class, don't come when called and no one does anything about it. These dogs are being trained to run laps around the course and ignore their handler and are allowed to practice it repeatedly. I have seen dogs who had this issue in class for years and yet no one has mentioned to the handler that they need to do something different! Not to mention it ruins the class for dogs who dislike strange dogs running up on them and dogs who are well behaved get their class time cut way down waiting for the handler to catch their dog. Talk about poor training that will certainly led to poor ring performance!

 ...this is a very important video to watch.  Steve White on the 8 Rules of Punishment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHiejASuDyQ&feature=player_embedded#!

Even though the video ends with a discussion about e-collars, I believe that Steve is one of the trainers who is no longer using them.  I prefer to train according to the Progressive Reinforcement Manifesto, but I realize that some people aren't quite there yet.  The point is that you really need to think about what you are doing, and truly own up to whether you are setting your dog up for success, plus understand how your actions can impact the dog's behavior in subtle ways that you may not have previously understood.  Never stop learning! 

 I'm fairly certain we've already had thread(s) on these "Eight Rules...."