Eight Rules for Punishment (and why we shouldn't use them)

poodleOwned

Case 1:  Female Poodle Sunndely stops heeling for no reason and refuses to continue heeling. Has a succesful record of trialling , 15 months old Sapyed early well socialsied, been trained with rewad based methods. Correct to get going How when and where any consequences?

Case 2 : Female Poodle (same dog as above)runs across road and doesn't ocme whe called aged 2 years. Correct or not?

Case 3: 16 month old male poodle ex show. No ones and twos everywhere. Ignores human voices, jumps up 6 ft high and licks face when excited . Will not sit drop , stay or recall. Correct or not? What for ? What consequences?

Case 4: 18 month female GSD working line. R+ trained well installed boundaries. Starting to show  some idependence , some inattention.Well bonded to owner. Good trial potential. Correct or not? What for? How?

CAse 5: 7 Month old male lab (not mine). Showinf "disrespect" to owners. Jumps up showing "dominace" by pulling on lead. Won't sit drop or heel. Nearly impossible in class, real troublemaker. Coreect or not? What for? How.

Case 1 and 2 is just matter of more training, you cant correct a dog for something he is NOT doing

Case 3: stepping on leash to self correct himself, verify the cause of the excitement (human contribution, lack of exercise)

Case 4: nothing wrong with that, you will have to be more specific

Case 5: Pulling on lead and dominance are not related necessarily (if any), i dont care if the dog sits or heel, i will put the leash at the top of the neck and walk with him at my side, 10 minutes later he does not pull anymore (never fails)

Espencer, you said

Case 5: Pulling on lead and dominance are not related necessarily (if any), i dont care if the dog sits or heel, i will put the leash at the top of the neck and walk with him at my side, 10 minutes later he does not pull anymore (never fails)

So, does that mean you just choke the dog into walking along beside you, or do you use leash pops, or what?  What type collar?  Have you ever tried this with a pulling Pit Bull?  (I've seen very strong people trying your method, even with prong collars, and still couldn't hold the dog back)  Could a 90 pound woman use your method without employing a special collar? (That's the beauty of clicker training sometimes...)

How many dogs, exactly, have you used this method with?  Could you tell me their breeds, please?  No method works on every dog - isn't that the mantra you use against the +R perspective?  So, if this method did fail you, what would be your alternatives?  Pulling is one of the most prevalent problems that people come to trainers about, so the more information you provide, the more helpful this is.

spiritdogs

So, does that mean you just choke the dog into walking along beside you, or do you use leash pops, or what?  What type collar?  Have you ever tried this with a pulling Pit Bull?  (I've seen very strong people trying your method, even with prong collars, and still couldn't hold the dog back)  Could a 90 pound woman use your method without employing a special collar? (That's the beauty of clicker training sometimes...)

How many dogs, exactly, have you used this method with?  Could you tell me their breeds, please?  No method works on every dog - isn't that the mantra you use against the +R perspective?  So, if this method did fail you, what would be your alternatives?  Pulling is one of the most prevalent problems that people come to trainers about, so the more information you provide, the more helpful this is.

I dont choke the dog, i just hold the leash, the dog can not help with his shoulders to pull anymore, after he/she realizes that any attempt is not sucessful he/she just relaxes. It can be a regular collar

Yes i have tried it on Pit Bulls, my 125 lb Alaskan Malamute, jack russels, golden retrievers, schnauzers, labs, mutts. Probably more than 20-30 dogs, no one single dog has kept pulling

Yes, a 90 lb woman could do it with my 125 lb Malamute but is not about just put the leash on and magically the dog transforms, it's all about PREVENTING EXCITEMENT. No putting the leash on until the dog is calm, not opening the door until the dog is calm, not crossing the door until the dog is calm, not start walking until the dog is calm.

Some dogs do the wheezing noise first but i dont blame them, they have pulled all their life and dont know better, i just keep walking with them at my side, some of them throw temper tamtrums and flip like a fish, i just let them jump as much as they want (burning more energy than they could use to pull) and in less than 10 minutes they just give up, they just realize that they are not going anywhere anymore.

Walking at my side has nothing to do with dominance, by walking at my side they just can see when i start walking so they can start walking, no viceversa. Start smelling the ground contributes to excitement and possible fail. Therefore i keep a short leash, the dog gives me 10 minutes of a good walk and i give him 5 munutes of sniffing (by that moment the dog already got the point on how to walk)

If you could use this method you could "dispatch" dog owners back to their homes as fast as they were coming

spiritdogs

Espencer, you said

Case 5: Pulling on lead and dominance are not related necessarily (if any), i dont care if the dog sits or heel, i will put the leash at the top of the neck and walk with him at my side, 10 minutes later he does not pull anymore (never fails)

So, does that mean you just choke the dog into walking along beside you,

miranadobe

In the show ring, the leash (more often the lead is collar inclusive, but regardless) is generally at the top of the neck to hold the head high - does not mean the dog is being choked.

Exactly, thanks for the example to illustrate better the technique

Personally I don't like "nagging" dogs.  If I'm going to use some form of punishment or aversive device, than I'd rather actually give corrections than allow the dog to constantly be pulling against me and (supposedly) self-correcting.  For some dogs, even a prong collar does not work as a self-correcting device, ie. if you want it to work to stop pulling you have to actually correct the dog yourself.  However I will admit that my personal preference has everything to do with the individual dog (I feel like a broken record here...).  I think for a lot of dogs, the head halter, or I-collar, or choke shoelace, or the front clip harness is enough on its own.  But for some dogs, and certainly *my* dog, it does nothing but nag nag nag at the dog and just makes the oppositional reflex stronger.  I personally will choose using a prong and giving corrections with it over using a head-halter.  My dog understands the former more quickly and enjoys himself a lot more when the boundaries are very clearly defined at the beginning so he understands what is desired and what is not acceptable because of what *I* am showing him, and not being left to figure it out himself.

Liesje

when the boundaries are very clearly defined

The boundries are way more than clear from the beginning. "You dont walk until I walk". I think that less than 10 minutes for the dog to walk fine (regardless how many years he/she spent pulling) demonstrates that the boundries are really clear for the dog.

miranadobe

In the show ring, the leash (more often the lead is collar inclusive, but regardless) is generally at the top of the neck to hold the head high - does not mean the dog is being choked.

If a dog is pulling he's motivated by something and the discomfort that especer suggest is not enough to  stop them.  In the training field I've seen some dogs pull to the point of actually passing out.

Corinthian

miranadobe

In the show ring, the leash (more often the lead is collar inclusive, but regardless) is generally at the top of the neck to hold the head high - does not mean the dog is being choked.

But that is the reason for putting the collar up high in order to cut off air supply. 

Where did you get this idea?  Do you show your dogs this way?  Do you have a handler who shows your dogs in conformation this way??

espencer

Liesje

when the boundaries are very clearly defined

The boundries are way more than clear from the beginning. "You dont walk until I walk". 

Depends on what you are defining.  "You dont walk until I walk" is not what I teach my dog.

Corinthian

And that's what espencer is doing, asphyxiating the dog - he would argue like many do that the dog is choking himself but I think that's like claiming the guy ran into my bullet.

If a dog is pulling he's motivated by something and the discomfort that especer suggest is not enough to  stop them.  In the training field I've seen some dogs pull to the point of actually passing out.

I agree.  I don't like choking a dog (or letting a dog choke himself) for any reason, and that even includes the show ring.  I don't think all show dogs are being choked, but I personally do not even use chokes in the show ring.  I either use a martingale, or in the SV ring we use a Fursaver several sizes too big on the *dead* ring.

If I want to give a correction, then I will give a correction, but I don't like sustained choking for any training or correction. I have slip leads which I use when transporting shelter/rescue dogs, as a precaution because many of these dogs are very anxious and sometimes strays who have never been on a lead, so a slip lead is necessary for their safety.  When I drop them off at the vet hospital or with the rescue transport I leave the slip leash with them since I have no other use for it.

Corinthian

miranadobe

In the show ring, the leash (more often the lead is collar inclusive, but regardless) is generally at the top of the neck to hold the head high - does not mean the dog is being choked.

But that is the reason for putting the collar up high in order to cut off air supply.  And that's what espencer is doing, asphyxiating the dog - he would argue like many do that the dog is choking himself but I think that's like claiming the guy ran into my bullet.

Yes. That is exactly the same thing.  

 If a handler is cutting off oxygen to the show dog, they are doing it incorrectly.

Corinthian

If a dog is pulling he's motivated by something and the discomfort that especer suggest is not enough to  stop them. 

Um yes it is, have never seen blue tongues, never seen a dog passing out. Let me see, 10 minutes of walking next to me vs years and years of underexercised frustrated dogs that end up in a shelter and PTS because "he/she is too hyper". Which one should we choose?

I will include myself to the question. Do you know any dog show owner that can confirm his/her dog is "asphyxiating" while walking around for the Judges? to the point of actually passing out?

Liesje

Depends on what you are defining.  "You dont walk until I walk" is not what I teach my dog.

And heeling is not what i teach my dog either, everybody will use what they want to use. If you want to spend more than 10 minutes teaching your dog how to heel (or loose leash walking or whatever) then thats fine, i personally dont

I am not saying one is better than the other. I just explained what I use and why.

espencer

Liesje

Depends on what you are defining.  "You dont walk until I walk" is not what I teach my dog.

And heeling is not what i teach my dog either, everybody will use what they want to use. If you want to spend more than 10 minutes teaching your dog how to heel (or loose leash walking or whatever) then thats fine, i personally dont

Not sure what this means.  I don't think I said anything about heeling.... 

Liesje

I don't think I said anything about heeling

You didnt, i just said that i dont teach heeling to my dog. If you want to choose whatever technique you want to use to prevent a dog from pulling thats fine. I would think that will take you more than 10 minutes but every person does what they want to do. If you dont want to have the most minimal risk of "choking" a dog (they dont) thats fine, i would think that a prong correction would cause more "discomfort" (consider that i'm using the " ";)

Everybody can use whatever they want to use, either the technique lasts 20 seconds or 4 months

I do this one and thats the one that works for me