Eight Rules for Punishment (and why we shouldn't use them)

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    • Gold Top Dog

    *****MODERATOR SPEAKING*****

    Once again the usual people are back at each other with extreme rudeness and personal attacks. Chuffy is right it is sickening. It is tiresome and mean-spirited.  No one on this forum promotes abusing their dogs, implying such is asinine.

    Corinthians you seem to feel the need to focus on grammar, this is not a forum for discussing grammar.  I am sure if you look for a forum that focuses on English grammar you would find one.  You should also consider that for some individuals on this board English is not a first language, to me it is wonderful that people can be so capable in two languages.

    Please consider a New Year Resolution to have meaningful, RESPECTFUL discussions on this forum.  If you all did, your debates would have a much more positive impact on forum members.  The discussions would offer an opportunity to learn for many.  Currently they do not and seem to only provide some of you an outlet for your frustration and anger.
    • Gold Top Dog

    poodleOwned

    spiritdogs
    Maybe not - I find that even some people here try to find any excuse to continue to use punishment when punishment is not necessary;-)  

     

    I am always confused by this need to punish.

     

    The "need to punish" is because in some lines of work, the dog MUST learn to work through pressure and learn how to control pressure in order to be successful or add any value to breeding.  When I do this type of work with my dog (WHEN DONE CORRECTLY), the dog's confidence grows, similar to when we are doing freeshaping (which I also think is very important because I value a "thinking" dog that is not afraid to initiate things and work independently).  Obviously this type of training does not start with a wee puppy being yanked around on a prong collar.  Just like when you clicker train a dog you are not starting with a formal retrieve or directed jumping, you start small by simply clicking and giving food so the dog understands the method and how to control it.

    What confuses me is that it seems many people assume that punishment is only used because the other method didn't work or that the trainer doesn't know any other method.  That is not true.  In some cases, I will intentionally choose punishment and choose it first because it's part of the learning process for the dog and part of testing what needs to be tested in order for him to safely and fairly move forward with his training.  If it's not done correctly and at the right times, it's not fair to the dog to even continue with the training.  That would be like training a dog that is obviously stick shy and instead of working through the stick-shyness, just decided to only use positive methods.  Then the dog gets to trial and is again pressured with the stick hits since that's part of the trial.  The dog basically melts down on the field because he either doesn't understand this type of pressure because his trainers never used it correctly, or he is just not a sound dog (which would have been discovered earlier if the trainers HAD started applying pressure, and the dog would have washed out and moved on to a better activity for him before getting run off the field at a major trial).  This is not just some anecdote I'm making up.  Watch *any* Sieger show and you will see a good number of dogs who have been destroyed because pressure was not used correctly in their training.  Either none at all, way too little, way too much, not enough when the dog is in the right state of mind and too much when he's not, etc.

    On the GSD board there is a "last resort" thread.  I do not use punishment as a "last resort".  I simply use whatever method is appropriate for my dog and what I'm trying to teach him.  I don't start with freeshaping, then if that fails move to luring, then if that fails move to manipulating the dog physically to help him find the position, then if that fails move to R- or P+.  No, if I have a behavior I want to freeshape, then I freeshape it.  If it's not working, then I need to figure out what I'm doing wrong.  If I want to use R- then that's where I start.

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer
    BUT that never stopped him from keep grabbing stuff. A few painless corrections taught him that those items were actually not supposed to be touched

     

     

    Sorry Eapencer, reality check time. A correction at least involves some significant startling. The corrections that you describe can often work to shut down dogs willingness to investigate which in my case with full on tracking dogs is absolutely a no no. My younger boy didn't get all of that business when he came to our house at 16 months. So we dealt with it in another way. Some involved management, some involved giving him an outlet for his energies and some involved swapping. It seems to have worked and i am not a magician.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    The "need to punish" is because in some lines of work, the dog MUST learn to work through pressure and learn how to control pressure in order to be successful or add any value to breeding.

     

    That is where the confusion comes from. As you well know, my oldest dog Luci is a "woosy" poodle but by working with her and building her drive she will track in crap conditions without a by or leave and there isn't any correction involved. Same with obedience.

    I will do the same with Sam.

    My Lab was the same. He pretty much ignored physcial pain and would drive through dreadful stuff to do a retrieve  or to track.

    To me a good well bred Shutzhund dog barely notices the stick. It hardly constitutes punishment, in fact it is more likely to  agitate than stop.  For this to happen though the dog has had to have it's drive well built   and the stick must be introuduced at the right times when the dog is in the right drive. It is similar to asking a gun dog to go through freezing cold water to get game or a gorse bush. Personally, I would discard a dog that showed stick shyness out of respect for the dog and the breeding programme.

    I have seen plenty of way too much but very little of not enough.

    • Gold Top Dog

    poodleOwned
    A correction at least involves some significant startling. The corrections that you describe can often work to shut down dogs willingness to investigate which in my case with full on tracking dogs is absolutely a no no.

     

    Yes and no.  I do NOT physically correct my dog on a track.  The effect is that he stops and turns back to me or at least looks at me, which is worse than whatever he was being corrected for (usually the head coming up too far....in SchH the dogs nose needs to be buried).  However I've corrected my dog in other contexts and used R- and it does not effect our tracking.  Again, I think this is a good example of just how different dogs are.  If I corrected Kenya so much that it "startled" her, I do believe this would negatively carry over. I don't correct her like this because of her temperament, so I don't know for sure, but again my dogs' temperament dictates how I train.

    • Gold Top Dog

    poodleOwned
    A correction at least involves some significant startling. The corrections that you describe can often work to shut down dogs willingness to investigate which in my case with full on tracking dogs is absolutely a no no.

    You need to give more credit to the dog's mind. Corrections dont kill drive. I corrected my dog to avoid chasing wild rabbits, at home he was more than happy to play with his flirt pole. I corrected my dog to stop from grabbing items inside the house, other times we hide his favorite toy under the bed sheets and he loves to search for it.

    Dogs know which circumstances they are allowed to display the behavior and which ones are not

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    my dogs' temperament dictates how I train.

     

    You've said this several times but it can't be repeated enough.  What works or doesn't work for one dog isn't enough to construct a generalized "rule" about why a particular method is best.

    • Gold Top Dog

    JackieG

    Liesje
    my dogs' temperament dictates how I train.

     

    You've said this several times but it can't be repeated enough.  What works or doesn't work for one dog isn't enough to construct a generalized "rule" about why a particular method is best.

     

    Thank you.  It's also important because it forces me to think outside of my box.  If I had stuck with my original dog club when I got this dog, we would have been severely limited in our training. I try to challenge myself as much or moreso than the dog.  That means being open to other tools, styles, and methods.  I know many people criticize aversive training as the "easy" way out, but you know, the same can be said about "positive only" training.  Regardless of which end of the spectrum, I think most people want to stay where they are comfortable.  I have been lucky to have some really great trainers push me to try new things and be more open.  There was no way I could do the type of sport/work I wanted to do only using the types of training I was previously comfortable with.

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer
    Corrections dont kill drive. I corrected my dog to avoid chasing wild rabbits, at home he was more than happy to play with his flirt pole. I corrected my dog to stop from grabbing items inside the house, other times we hide his favorite toy under the bed sheets and he loves to search for it.

     

     

    Oh hell. I think we work with very different dogs to very different criterea. I am stretching myself to be polite.  I have no idea what you do with your dog(s) . I now refuse to work with dogs that have been trained with a lot of corrections in normal life in  tracking because they are very very difficult to train and the learned helplessness that many display is not at all wonderful. It happens so often.  Finding a toy under a bed sheet takes a whole lot less drive than finding a polystrrene cup on a three hour old track that is in difficult terrain. That is when you find drive deficits. Chasing a flirt pole is almost a test of whether a dog is alive or not. My cat chases a flirt pole.

    We are pursuing yet again topics that have been tested in tons of literature by tons of scientests. Why are we doing this? Why do we keep trying to generalise the results  of one dog to may? Why isn't my topic about different types of rewarding full to overflowing? Why this obsession with corrections and punishment ?

    • Gold Top Dog

    poodleOwned
    Why this obsession with corrections and punishment ?

     

    I haven't seen anyone here with an obsession with corrections and punishment.  It helps keep the discussion on a more balanced plane if there are not exaggerations and histronics. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    Yes and no.  I do NOT physically correct my dog on a track. 

     

    Well i do go out to get my dogs to footstep track and then they go like steam trains and i fiugre what the hell!!! One day...

    A diet of corrections for this and corrections for that produce dogs that are hell to train for tracking. One of the criterea for a "good correction" is that it must give you a behviour that you were seeking.  

    If you do poor foundation training in tracking AND the dog enjoys hunting AND the track drive isn't there there is sometimes a need to punish. TOs work brillantly for this . But the frequency is tiny.  One dog in may be fifty and for small periods of time on a track. It isn't worth a column over.

    Lets go to obedience. Luci hasn't been punished a whole lot in her life. She has to work away form me a lot. I have to trust her she has to trust me. First you have to have the drive. I don't care to see dogs that are poorly motivated in the ring it is so sad. As i have said before, the idea that the fun is going to stop is enough for Luci to pull her wings in. If it isn't then i have the wrong dog with the worng trainig and need to go back to the drawing board. Corrections just aren't called for .

    • Gold Top Dog

    poodleOwned
    I now refuse to work with dogs that have been trained with a lot of corrections in normal life in  tracking because they are very very difficult to train and the learned helplessness that many display is not at all wonderful. It happens so often.  Finding a toy under a bed sheet takes a whole lot less drive than finding a polystrrene cup on a three hour old track that is in difficult terrain. That is when you find drive deficits. Chasing a flirt pole is almost a test of whether a dog is alive or not. My cat chases a flirt pole.

     

    Regardless of the difficulty level, my examples demonstrate that corrections dont shut down dogs willingness to investigate. I can just remove the leash from my dog and believe me, he will think that i'm now giving him permission to chase the wild rabbit, the prey drive is still there

    poodleOwned
    Why this obsession with corrections and punishment ?

    You will have to ask that to the OP, people who actually use corrections do not open threads very often

    • Gold Top Dog

    The thread was started to provide some food for thought regarding the way handlers should apply punishment if they are going to.  The point was that if we use the criteria set forth in the "eight rules", it becomes apparent that there are many people who should be using punishment much less than they are. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer
    Regardless of the difficulty level, my examples demonstrate that corrections dont shut down dogs willingness to investigate. I can just remove the leash from my dog and believe me, he will think that i'm now giving him permission to chase the wild rabbit, the prey drive is still there


     Actually.....

    What they show is that in your opinion and with your observation skills you think that corrections do not affect your dogs investigating skills or inhibit it's prey drive when it is off leash. You have no idea what they are because you have never tested or assessed them, you just know.

    Now i wonder if it would be interested in your agenda of investigation on lead?

    Difficulty of an exercise is really important. It gives an idea of what resources the dog needs to do an exercise under stress. 

     So when i proof my dog for Scent Discrimination, i want to see her doing the exercise off lead of course on a footpath with people moving around her.

    What is the equivalent for your dog?

    How do you assess that?

    What other dogs and or handlers do you assess that against?

     


    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer
    I can just remove the leash from my dog and believe me, he will think that i'm now giving him permission to chase the wild rabbit, the prey drive is still there

    I ask this in the most honest manner, with no ill intent (trying to keep the topic well, on topic!!).

    Why is it only the leash that keeps your dog from chasing rabbits? Have you done any off-leash training to try to change your dog's relationship and willingness to work with you? In other words, it sounds to me like the only way you can "control" prey drive is through physical manipulation and coercion. Have you done any other type of training to change how your dog responds to you in the face of distractions?

    And just to show that I am not nit-picking, I am the first to say that Gaci is not a dog that can be trusted offleash in all areas at all times. She is a breathing, dripping predatory machine and new environments can be cause for her to turn deaf and follow her instincts. However, in other areas she can be totally offleash with other prey-like animals and be completely safe. She is almost never leashed in the backyard, and is never leashed on our hikes on the field trail or the beach we hike on in the summer. She has learned, within the limits that I have worked (that's the important part - the level of proofing required), based upon relationship and reinforcement history, that she will almost always get what she wants (including often the ability to chase!) if she does as I want. It has taken her six years to get there, but she has gotten there.

    So I do ask - is your leash (and the corrections associated, as it's all that I know you have used thus far for leash work) the only thing that keeps your dog attached to you when out in the environment? If you removed the leash altogether, it sounds as though your dog would be gone in a heartbeat. Is this true, or is it just the way you typed it that sounds that way? If you removed the leash, does he automatically think he has permission to chase, or do you still get to "choose" (with cues such as recalls, waits, and stays, or general attention) when to release him and when he needs to be with you?