Eight Rules for Punishment (and why we shouldn't use them)

JackieG

What works or doesn't work for one dog isn't enough to construct a generalized "rule" about why a particular method is best.

Liesje

The "need to punish" is because in some lines of work, the dog MUST learn to work through pressure and learn how to control pressure in order to be successful or add any value to breeding.  When I do this type of work with my dog (WHEN DONE CORRECTLY), the dog's confidence grows, similar to when we are doing freeshaping (which I also think is very important because I value a "thinking" dog that is not afraid to initiate things and work independently).

 Its funny that aversive trainers never meet a dog they can't train without a prong collar, while I participating in the same protection, tracking, field dog sports have trained my dogs and helped others without even a leash.

 Are the rest of us getting dogs from some magical kennel where they breed exceedingly pliable and smart dogs? Or is it more likely that because we don't use aversive as a crutch we think our way out of difficult situations where others just turn to an ecollar or prong collars to solve their problems?

Corinthian

Are the rest of us getting dogs from some magical kennel where they breed exceedingly pliable and smart dogs?

 I think so, it seems to be the law of exceptions! I suffer from the poodle law of learning. It is the one that many of the Aversive orientated boys and girls hang on to. It was especially invented for them

 If my dogs do well it is because they are poodles and poodles are bright and intelligent. If they win then they are special poodles. If they have an off day it is because i don't put enough welly into them and I am a bit strange to be a bloke and have poodles. You can't win....

Now when i handle another breed (and i do from time to time) just change the word poodle to whippet or Labrador or GSD or Malanois.

Corinthian

Whether you are talking about schutz, ring,  mondio or any of the variants this pressure is not meant to discourage the dog. The application of the aversive is introduced slowly and deliberately not as a punishment, it serves as a signal that greater effort is required in order to achieve the goal. 

Actually, i have been thinking. You can smell the wood smoke from here :) I have a couple of non censored videos of both of my poodles playing and frankly both of them have some physical pressure applied to them. Sure it isn't  a whole lot and it just serves to make them even more excited. I am reluctant on two counts. One is that both of my dogs are very very fit and are doing things that a dog with no fitness training should ever be asked or enticed to do. Second is the clown factor.Some idiot is bound to look at the videos get it all wrong, rev up some poor dog and blame the dog when it goes all wrong, or not understand that play of these kind of intensity takes a truck load of trust form the dog something you don't get from a lifetime of nagging or bullying.

 I will check it out with some of my peers tomorrow and see what they think :)

I think the point i am making is that an Aversive is contextual. It sure isn't in these videos. 

I encourage my dogs to play harder with a little physical pressure as well. I try to be very careful in only applying enough pressure that they will blow through it and feel stronger for it. Too much and they will back up or approach side on, and that's far from the aim. I've currently got Erik leaping right at me for his toy and pushing a little against my hand. Kivi, when in the mood, will throw himself against my restraining hand to get to his toy. I've borrowed from the Natural Dog Training pushing exercise a little (don't tell anyone. ) I don't think it's a punishment if the dog is happy to blow through it.

I've just come from a week with my partner's parents and their Min Pin. It's heartbreaking watching this dog. His owners are the quintessential Joe Public when it comes to dealing with dogs. They adore Alex and dote on him, have taught him to sit, take him to the vet every year, walk him, let him sleep on their bed... but they react to him instead of being pro-active. When he barks at strangers they shout at him. When he growls at other dogs they growl at him, and even smack him lightly for daring to express himself. When he's excited he makes noise and they shout at him again. When food is left on the table he will sometimes sneak up and pinch some, and they shout at him. When they leave him alone he frets and barks and the neighbours complain and they come home and gruff at him for the rest of the day for being naughty. They bought some toys for him and he gets interested when they squeak, but he's too afraid to chase them or play with them and then they grumble that he won't play with the toys. They shout at him when he looks sideways at human food and wonder why he won't take treats when they offer them. One moment they are trying to engage him in play and the next they are following him around the house making deep, scary noises so that he is afraid.

Obviously, this dog is too soft for the treatment he has received. At least, obviously to me. My partner has learnt a lot since we got Kivi and tells his parents that Alex is the messed up little dog he is because they shout at him too much and punish him when he doesn't even know he's doing anything wrong. He is a classic, shutdown dog, but it doesn't matter how many times we say "Don't do that; look, he doesn't like it, you're scaring him" they don't understand. Last time they were here my partner's father crept up behind Kivi when he was sleeping and grabbed him with a loud growl, despite both me and my partner saying "Don't do that!" Little wonder Alex bit me on the face the first time I met him.

No one in this discussion treats their dog like that (I assume), but that's not what concerns me. What concerns me is that there are millions of dog owners out there that know of no other way to behave with dogs. When they can't even tell that they are scaring their dog, how can we as dog lovers possibly countenance the use of punishments in dog training as a general concept? If Alex had been trained with positive reinforcement from the get-go I bet his owners wouldn't need to tranquilise him every time they leave the house for a few hours. They wouldn't spend half their lives rousing on him for doing what comes naturally, and they wouldn't have a dog that won't play and won't work for treats, praise, or any other typical reward.

Those of us that can tell when we are scaring our dogs can and should pay attention to our dogs' personality and adjust our training methods to suit. Sad fact is, most people can't tell. I've met professional trainers that can't tell. I wonder how many behaviourists would go out of business if everyone trained their dogs with positive reinforcement and anticipated common problems and trained for them pre-emptively?
 

 Sadly, corvus, the people you describe are often the very people who will profess their love, tell you that they've had dogs all their lives (which, to them, means they know more than you), and even the ones who do sort of see what you are saying can't help themselves to fall back into their daily habit of how to deal with Fido.  I'm more amazed at the resilience of dogs than anyone, but I am also saddened by the fact that there are soooo many dogs living the way your little friend does, with owners who think they know dogs...

Corinthian

Liesje

The "need to punish" is because in some lines of work, the dog MUST learn to work through pressure and learn how to control pressure in order to be successful or add any value to breeding.  When I do this type of work with my dog (WHEN DONE CORRECTLY), the dog's confidence grows, similar to when we are doing freeshaping (which I also think is very important because I value a "thinking" dog that is not afraid to initiate things and work independently).

Then what you are doing is not punishment at all. Whether you are talking about schutz, ring,  mondio or any of the variants this pressure is not meant to discourage the dog. The application of the aversive is introduced slowly and deliberately not as a punishment, it serves as a signal that greater effort is required in order to achieve the goal.  In essence it is very much like teaching a dog to bite, pull or run faster by introducing resistance.

 Its funny that aversive trainers never meet a dog they can't train without a prong collar, while I participating in the same protection, tracking, field dog sports have trained my dogs and helped others without even a leash.

 Are the rest of us getting dogs from some magical kennel where they breed exceedingly pliable and smart dogs? Or is it more likely that because we don't use aversive as a crutch we think our way out of difficult situations where others just turn to an ecollar or prong collars to solve their problems?

I do think it's because you think your way out of difficult situations.  Even those of us who do not have a dog working in one of the disciplines you mention will often have to do that.  Somehow, there is an unspoken thought process among the aversive trainers that says if you do *not* train in Sch, ring, mondio, etc. that your dog is "different" and the implication is that the dog is less difficult to train so you couldn't possibly know how to get a dog to work in drive or do the skills necessary for that discipline without coercion.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  All dogs, despite their breed predispositions, are individuals, and learn at different rates, and with different reinforcements and pressures.  And trainers are either very skilled, or less so.  But, if you can give me the address of the magical kennel....

poodleOwned

Corinthian

Are the rest of us getting dogs from some magical kennel where they breed exceedingly pliable and smart dogs?

 

 I think so, it seems to be the law of exceptions! I suffer from the poodle law of learning. It is the one that many of the Aversive orientated boys and girls hang on to. It was especially invented for them

 If my dogs do well it is because they are poodles and poodles are bright and intelligent. If they win then they are special poodles. If they have an off day it is because i don't put enough welly into them and I am a bit strange to be a bloke and have poodles. You can't win....

Now when i handle another breed (and i do from time to time) just change the word poodle to whippet or Labrador or GSD or Malanois.

 

 

 

 

If I'm a good trainer, it's because I have smart Aussies;-))  Funny, no one who says that ever mentions the other breeds I've trained... just change the word to (pick your breed)

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poodleOwned

You have no idea what they are because you have never tested or assessed them, you just know.

Kim_MacMillan

So I do ask - is your leash (and the corrections associated, as it's all that I know you have used thus far for leash work) the only thing that keeps your dog attached to you when out in the environment? If you removed the leash altogether, it sounds as though your dog would be gone in a heartbeat. Is this true, or is it just the way you typed it that sounds that way? If you removed the leash, does he automatically think he has permission to chase, or do you still get to "choose" (with cues such as recalls, waits, and stays, or general attention) when to release him and when he needs to be with you?

Before anything i just want to remind you that i'm way far from interested on applying the methods you use, first because there are leash laws that we need to follow, second because there is no way i would ever risk my dog's life walking off leash on the street, just to see if my dog will stay with me when a wild rabbit comes out and then my dog turns into a road kill, just to try to prove wrong somebody that i will ever meet in my life and lives in another city

Having said that, i have let my dog off leash several times in a relative safe environment, behind my house there is a grassy area that is like 1 mile long, it's surrounded by heavy bushes and the nearest street is far enough to let my dog free, he uses a 50 feet drag line all the time. The drag line rarely has had to be picked up. Chuck has seen wild rabbits there and has tried to get close to them but they always disappear into the heavy bushes that he can not get into. I dont correct that, on an open field it will be hard for him to catch one.

He investigates always close to the bushes to see what he can smell or see. When something has caught her attention and he is starting to be left behind i just whistle, he sees that he is behind and right away he come back to me. I know you are not going to believe me but do you know how much recall exercises i have practice with to my dog before? 0%, my dog chooses to stay with me, i have never taught him that is "good" to stay with me, i have never given him a treat because he has come back. We are a pack and his instincts tell him that a pack stays together. Would i do it in the street? no, i'm not interested on teaching him to heel and he does not know how to cross streets

So if i ask my self how's my relationship with my dog i would say it could not be better. My dog chooses to stay close to me by his own decision, not because i have something to offer in return

corvus

I've borrowed from the Natural Dog Training pushing exercise a little (don't tell anyone. ) I don't think it's a punishment if the dog is happy to blow through it.

How in **** did that joker take credit for something that trainers have doing for ages???

trained for them pre-emptively?

espencer

Before anything i just want to remind you that i'm way far from interested on applying the methods you use,

I never asked if you were interested in my methods. I simply asked what you have done for training, that's all.

espencer

first because there are leash laws that we need to follow,

That is very very responsible of you. I follow all local leash laws as well. Any responsible dog owner should do that. I take it you then either live in a suburban or urban area where there are no areas that don't have leash laws.

espencer

second because there is no way i would ever risk my dog's life walking off leash on the street, just to see if my dog will stay with me when a wild rabbit comes out and then my dog turns into a road kill, just to try to prove wrong somebody that i will ever meet in my life and lives in another city

That is also very responsible. I would hope that nobody would routinely run their dog offleash in areas that has moving vehicles anywhere nearby. That is simply asking for trouble and heartbreak. I would never do that either (although my dogs are offleash in the backyard, with trained perimeter boundaries), so I'm glad we are on the same page! I think safety has absolutely nothing to do with methods, though.

espencer

know you are not going to believe me but do you know how much recall exercises i have practice with to my dog before? 0%, my dog chooses to stay with me, i have never taught him that is "good" to stay with me, i have never given him a treat because he has come back.

I do believe you, to a point, because I have a dog just like that. Shimmer is a dog who naturally wants to be with her people and cares what they think, although I think that there is more to it than just having a naturally-following dog, that there is a combination of factors involved. You are very lucky to have such a dog since training isn't a big interest of yours, and not a dog such as Gaci who before training would be as happy to go off and fend for herself and live as a self-sufficient dog, as her instincts tell her to do! Then again your breed of dog was bred for generations to work with human handlers and in social dog groups, so it makes sense that your dog would check in with you naturally. It's great you have a dog that is close to what it was bred for! Shimmer, while I love the fact that she's so trustworthy, in that manner is not typical of the breed and is not what her history denotes she should be. It's great as a family-pet sense, although it's a double edged sword for those like me who enjoy having dogs that retain their breed-specific traits.

espencer

So if i ask my self how's my relationship with my dog i would say it could not be better.

That's great that you feel that way! Most people would probably say that at face value anyhow, depending on what we ask of our dogs. I have seen some dogs with pretty downright unsafe behaviours whose owners say their relationship with their dog cannot be better too, so there's no real value in saying that as evidence other than that you are happy with your own dog. I have dogs with drives and behaviours that I love and go out of my way to teach, that would drive other people who want "just a pet" crazy.

espencer

My dog chooses to stay close to me by his own decision, not because i have something to offer in return

My dogs stay with me by their own decision as well. All dogs do things by their own decision, unless physically prevented such as when on leash. It seems that they simply choose to stay for different reasons. Your dog likely chooses to stay because of the past threat of being punished for going against your wishes (as you have openly talked about in leash corrections), and your dog works to avoid punishment, as any smart dog would do. That combined with a personality that sounds (from your descriptions) like a dog who is happy to follow along and go with the flow, likely makes the final product that you see. My dogs stay due to a mixed combination of being rewarded for it, and for the threat of losing freedom (negative punishment), so they work to get what they want, and to avoid losing freedom of offleash status.

Your dog chooses to stay not because you have something to offer in return - that is correct - but because it has the risk of losing something, or of having something negative happen to it. That is just as powerful as having something to offer in return. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, or that one way is better, but it's just how it is - it works both ways. In that effect the dog is still controlling the environment - it is actively working to avoid a leash correction from occurring.

Kim_MacMillan

Your dog chooses to stay not because you have something to offer in return - that is correct - but because it has the risk of losing something, or of having something negative happen to it. That is just as powerful as having something to offer in return. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, or that one way is better, but it's just how it is - it works both ways. In that effect the dog is still controlling the environment - it is actively working to avoid a leash correction from occurring.

That might be or not be accurate as i have never corrected him for not coming back. When he does come back he returns to me running with the tongue hanging out and a "smile" on his face

Back to the original topic, if people cant apply these 8 rules for punishment to perfection then those people should not use them

espencer

Back to the original topic, if people cant apply these 8 rules for punishment to perfection then those people should not use them

Do you agree with all 8 rules?  Just curious.  I don't.  I also find it interesting that those who use no punishment or an absolute bare minimum are the ones advocating for these "rules".  Should we let a "traditional" crank and yank type trainer make up our rules for free shaping with a clicker?  I don't think so.

Liesje

Should we let a "traditional" crank and yank type trainer make up our rules for free shaping with a clicker?  I don't think so.

Ever wonder why those of us who use a bare minimum of punishments have chosen that path? Think we've never tried punishments? On the contrary, I would wager that the vast majority of positive trainers and most likely all positive trainers on this board have used punishments, both successfully and unsuccessfully. Most of us have already said that, in this thread and others.

Personally, I agree with all 8 rules because I've seen the fallout when they have not been followed. Does that mean I've never successfully trained with punishments and therefore have no right to support a list of rules that I see as least likely to result in fallout if followed? I have tried to show you the utmost respect in these threads, Liesje, because I believe you are an excellent trainer with a very sound understanding of your dogs and how they should be handled, but that comment was just the kind of clueless rubbish I hear from correction-based trainers. Trainers who have never properly used positive reinforcement and fail to realise that not only have many positive trainers crossed over from correction-based themselves, but they have done so not because of easy dogs, but because of hard dogs that don't follow the rules most dogs follow. Not because they applied corrections incorrectly, but because they did it correctly and it made the problem worse. Not because they'd rather put a dog down than show some balls and show it who's boss, but because they have learnt that you don't NEED to.

Now, I KNOW you are not one of those trainers. I know you use loads of positive reinforcement and use it well. I know you are highly aware of your dogs' individual personalities and what they are capable of. I know you adjust the way you interract with each dog to suit their temperament and I have no doubt that your dogs worship the ground you walk on and are very lucky puppers. This is because I respect you enough to listen to you and judge what you say to be profoundly sensible. Give me and the other people on this board that are open about their use of positive reinforcement AND punishments some credit. I think I probably speak for all of them when I say it was a well-informed decision to avoid punishments wherever possible.

I stand by what I said before. Most people out there don't even know when their dog is showing fear. It's not their fault and it doesn't mean they shouldn't have dogs, but by gosh they should be taught to follow those 8 rules if they want to use punishment on their dogs. For the dogs' sake.