Eight Rules for Punishment (and why we shouldn't use them)

Corinthian

 

miranadobe

So dogs can correct people with pain/discomfort, but people should not correct dogs with pain/discomfort "because their timing is not as precise as a dog's"?

What a childish argument.  He does it to me, so I do it to him.  Humans are the ones with large frontal cortex, the ability to reason and communicate complex ideas.  Maybe you should stop letting the dog set the standard of behavior.

miranadobe

First, watch the tone.  Second, that is not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that it's bizarre to me that folks negate that life will correct a dog in various forms, so to think that a leash correction is less humane than the wheels of a car, or the needle full of "the pink stuff" because his temperament isn't middle-of-the-road and responsive to positive training to the exclusion of physical corrections, because someone deems the corrections administered by human could never be timed correctly, is absurd.

If you make a lousy argument, I will tell you. And here you've gone from one childish argument to the logical fallacy of extremes.  The only options are not leash correction and a dead dog.  There is a whole spectrum of possibilities that you are not taking into account. Simply because you are unwilling to explore them don't pretend that they don't exist and in most cases prove to be far better options that the ones you present.

denise m

espencer

spiritdogs

it's just that when we punish (scientific definition) we do so without causing pain or fear whenever we can, and we don't try to find any excuse we can to continue to punish dogs when it is not necessary. 

Oh then that means i was always "positive"

 

I think from Anne's definition just about everyone would be a positive trainer here.  

Maybe not - I find that even some people here try to find any excuse to continue to use punishment when punishment is not necessary;-)  

Corinthian

There is a whole spectrum of possibilities that you are not taking into account.

I never said that I don't or haven't - you assumed. 

What's that about "fallacy of extremes"???....

Corinthian

that using force and aversives is a gamble because you never know if it will break the dog until he lies shattered in pieces or worse

miranadobe

spiritdogs

However, I think that the dogs that are trained correctly using positive methods are less likely to "lunch" a benign human than dogs treated badly (unnecessary punishment falls into the "badly" category IMO)  We are talking about how you train a dog under normal circumstances.  I

 One dog comes to mind in particular, who was owned by a positive trainer (maybe not using positive training properly?), who essentially treated the dog so she believed she was equal.  (Hypothesizing here, of course, since I was never in the dog's mind.)  Paraphrasing, that dog had a bone on the trainer's bed, the trainer went in too close and the dog bit the trainer's face, causing injury requiring stitches.  This was not a training scenario directly, and I would consider this "normal circumstances".  I believe more dogs who are indulged where bad behaviors are ignored cause injury sooner than an over-corrected dog in "normal circumstances".  In many cases, temperament and genetics do play a role, since I do believe that some dogs require a leader - not an equal - just my opinion. 

There is a huge difference among trainers in terms of their abilities, and my guess is that the trainer in your example might have done very well training her dog to sit and stay, but forgot to use preventive training regarding resource guarding, which I actually have taught in my classes for years.  It's a shortened version of Donaldson's protocol, but I believe every dog, regardless how nice a pup you think you have, needs training that stresses polite object exchange, and makes the dog feel less threatened about its possessions.  I could share stories about traditional trainers who get bitten by their own dogs, too.  Would you say that they are fine because they are *not* indulging their dogs? 

Corinthian

And here you've gone from one childish argument to the logical fallacy of extremes

Look who's talking, Mr. "shattered in pieces"

spiritdogs

I find that even some people here try to find any excuse to continue to use punishment when punishment is not necessary

espencer

Look who's talking, Mr. "shattered in pieces"

 Mr. "I can't read", see where I use "IF"? That's called a conditional statement.

What's that about "fallacy of extremes"???

See above, without the 'I can't read'

Corinthian

That's called a conditional statement.

At the end: an extreme conditional statement (plus childish and lousy)

Coming in late (maybe even too late for a good discussion) to say that I try to avoid punishment simply because I feel like Chuffy. I don't really like myself much when I'm doing that. I'm more about doing the "right" thing first (even my own behaviors) and so I do as much as I can to set my dogs up to do the right thing too.

And when I do give them corrections, however sparingly? It's because of my own frame of mind.

I agree with Anne on never letting take the treat they wanted. Mine never grab for anything at all. Ever. I'm so lucky that way. Now if I can keep my terriers from being so barky . . .

PS--this is for you, espencer: Were you clicker training on that video? What is that about? I didn't know you did clicker training. (I haven't been here in awhile.)

 You really should learn to read, that was hardly and extreme.  When you guys suggest punishment or death, that's extreme. My statement was nuanced.

spiritdogs

Maybe not - I find that even some people here try to find any excuse to continue to use punishment when punishment is not necessary;-)  

I am always confused by this need to punish. I am very open and candid about my training processes, and will institute a TO sooner rahter than later if i have  a behaviour establishing itself that can't be extinguished any other way. Becuase of my size, sometimes people will ask me to "correct" their dogs and i always say the same thing which is that i will galdy correct your dog if in my opinion thre is no other option .I have hardly ever had to correct and when i did it was a harsh verbal much on the lines of ian Dunbar  To be honest in that case it was a mild loss of temper on my part as i was sick of getting holes in my clothes from a clown of a standard poodle..

Any one that lets a dog have a bone on their bed should not be the exception that is debated on this forum. They sound like they should try for an honorable mention in the Darwin Awards.   Responsible positve trainers with the teeniest collection of brain cells put in boundaries. My older poodle is allowed on our bed. it is a very simple matter, she can go off when i ask, or outside if she doesn't. Common Sense. As for a bone.... you must be joking. We did teach these protocols, and showed how to prevent the bone and resource contention in class .

It is when training failures occur that correction seems to get promoted as the way to go. I am no magician but i get suprised over and over again how soft these so called troublesome dogs are and how responsive to some decent communciation and rewards they are.On one hand they have often been exposed to unreinforced nagging with the odd occasssional non contingent thump for good measure, or misguided permisisveness and a misunderstanding of how to apply R+ training.

espencer

Corinthian

And here you've gone from one childish argument to the logical fallacy of extremes

 

Look who's talking, Mr. "shattered in pieces"

spiritdogs

I find that even some people here try to find any excuse to continue to use punishment when punishment is not necessary

 I would think that type of people would not be spending their time in this forum

 

Not only do they spend time here, but they even advocate the punishment methods used by others. 

poodleOwned

It is when training failures occur that correction seems to get promoted as the way to go. I am no magician but i get suprised over and over again how soft these so called troublesome dogs are and how responsive to some decent communciation and rewards they are.

Well if the technique is failing is no brainer that's not the way to go. My dog as a pup was doing what all the other puppies do, grabbing stuff and check them out with his mouth, a trade for a piece of cheese was always making him drop whatever he had in less than a second BUT that never stopped him from keep grabbing stuff. A few painless corrections taught him that those items were actually not supposed to be touched

 This thread is starting to make me feel sick.  Come on people, please, listen to yourselves.....  Sad to see what was an interesting discussion go to the dogs.  I'm out.

Chuffy

 This thread is starting to make me feel sick.  Come on people, please, listen to yourselves.....  Sad to see what was an interesting discussion go to the dogs.  I'm out.

Thanks, Chuffy.  It's hard to imagine what lurkers must think.  Can you imagine wanting to participate if you are new here?