I'm Renaming "Pack Drive"

Since the troops have all been called in, lest I really get to rename pack drive (guess what - I'm gonna do it in my own head anyway, because I rather like the "affinity" that dogs often have for one another), so we might as well really get off the beaten track...

Who knew that hedgehogs came in "arrays"???  

Thank you for that informative link.  I found it very enjoyable.  Much more so than the rose theory of evolution.

spiritdogs

Since the troops have all been called in, lest I really get to rename pack drive (guess what - I'm gonna do it in my own head anyway, because I rather like the "affinity" that dogs often have for one another), so we might as well really get off the beaten track...

Who knew that hedgehogs came in "arrays"???  

Thank you for that informative link.  I found it very enjoyable.  Much more so than the rose theory of evolution.

Troops called in?

I have no problem with Affinity of dogs, because your right, they do have an affinity.

My personal favorite off that list is a puddle of puppies....

spiritdogs

Since the troops have all been called in

"Troops" and "camps".... is there some war I'm not aware of???

Interesting link, Truley.

spiritdogs

because I think that dogs really are NOT pack animals, but, rather, social animals. 

Well, I definately agree.  Especially, where the chow breed is concerned.  It's pretty well written about regarding the breed that they are not "pack" animals. They aren't really social with others either for that matter.  But, didn't realize "most" are this way. 

espencer

Yeah I'm sure that that skill level of hunting gets accomplished by just all getting together one day, hunt and then all of them moving on their own way. Why stay together for longer right?

Let's watch this video, the level of communication during the hunt is amazing, they dont reach this by being together for just a couple months and each move on with their own lives afterwards

During the last couple of weeks , my birth countries Rugby team the All Blacks who are normally rated no one in the world in Rugby Union got beaten by the Barbarians who are a team of very high class players that are picked and meet for just one match The communication required to play rugby at that level is huge. There is talk all the time, but a lot of the skills and tactics are universal.

If i picked up a dog that had been trained to heel properly, veyr quickly i could get that dog to heel well with my and i wouldn't  say much at all, it would be body language. Same with agility.

I have done mustering with sheep dogs knowing just basic elements of how each sheep dog wil approach the job looking after qute big flocks.

It is no suprise to me to understand that dogs have exquisite and quite (within a breed) almost universal body language. Many of the responses are FAPS, and result in the kind of synchrnicity that you see here.

The hassle with pack hierachical theory is that the observations unless biased don't match the evidence. Of course dogs get together and hunt. They get together and scavenge, they get together and in good times play,

espencer

denial

I much more used to hearing about this indirectly on Mondays if my footy team or cricket team loses. We talk about going to Egypt where De Nile is. One way of coping with a loss is to De Nile it. Hardly something to accuse someone who is just making observations like David Mech 

. 

miranadobe

spiritdogs

Since the troops have all been called in

"Troops" and "camps".... is there some war I'm not aware of???

I don't know.  Is there??? 

poodleOwned

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The hassle with pack hierachical theory is that the observations unless biased don't match the evidence. Of course dogs get together and hunt. They get together and scavenge, they get together and in good times play,

espencer

denial

 

I really think that denial comes into the picture when you choose, arbitrarily, to deny scientific evidence.  No one is saying that dogs don't form groups, or cooperatively hunt, scavenge, or play, as PoodleOwned observed that they do, however, they do not stay together in static packs and do not have a hierarchical structure similar to wolves.  We really don't have evidence that that would not happen over time without the interference of humans to prevent a reversion to feral status over several generations, but it could also be that those particular patterns or skills have been permanently lost to domestic dogs and would not return - that's a matter for further scientific investigation perhaps.  But, I would like to see the people who cling to the pack or dominance theories do more reading of the scientific literature, more research and observation of hundreds of dogs, not just one dog or an artificial pack (would your dogs really *choose* the same companions you have chosen for them, or would they befriend different dogs?)  I have a feeling that if Maska could choose his own pack, he'd move in with Gina, and not spend his time with those irritating herders lol.

spiritdogs

No one is saying that dogs don't form groups, or cooperatively hunt

Before:

spiritdogs

do not hunt cooperatively

*********************************************************************************************

spiritdogs

they do not stay together in static packs and do not have a hierarchical structure similar to wolves.

But then:

spiritdogs

We really don't have evidence that that would not happen over time without the interference of humans

And then speculation:

spiritdogs

but it could also be that those particular patterns or skills have been permanently lost to domestic dogs and would not return

It's hard to believe those biased people that claim that what i practice is wrong when my dog it's pretty well behaved and as eager to play with me every day as any other. The only time i saw him with the tail between his legs was when he introduce his head in a cardboard box himself.

I know somebody that has observed hundred of dogs for years (not only an "artificial" pack), but then you make excuses to not believe him. In his book he actually says that when he hikes with his pack and get to a "rest zone", he observed that every breed of dogs were resting together, pitbulls with pitbulls, GDS with GDS, etc.

I would tend to believe this guy more than Jean Donaldson who probably has never owned a group of more than 5 dogs when this other guy has one that is more than 30 dogs. I think he has a wider opportunity for observation every single day regarding pack behavior

I am too lazy to read anything that has been posted in this thread so far. I am just going to add some links and quotes from other sources.

http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html

http://dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

this is an excerpt from the above link;

"Studies of feral dogs tend to suggest, therefore, that domestication has significantly altered the social behaviour of dogs from their ancestral species. In free living groups, feral dogs do not remain in strict family packs, there is no restriction of breeding, and hence no apparently pyramidal structure based on a single breeding pair and their offspring as is found in wolves. Interactions between individuals are much more fluid, and appear based more on circumstance, sexual cycles and prior learning about the behaviour of other individuals."
 
"Furthermore, recent research suggests that groups of domestic dogs do not form social groupings that can be interpreted in terms of a dominance hierarchy. The study, described in Bradshaw et al. (2009) investigated the interactions between a group of 19 dogs housed together in a ‘sanctuary’ environment. The aim of this study was to investigate whether these neutered domestic dogs, which had been in the group for at least 6 months and were freely able to determine interactions between group members, formed a hierarchical structure as predicted by the ‘dominance theory’. Interactions between each pair of dogs were recorded, but showed no evidence of an overall ‘hierarchy’ within the group. Rather, the interactions suggested that each pair of dogs had a learnt pattern of behaviour with each other, which may or may not vary between different situations, but which could not be combined into any overall group structure (Bradshaw et al. 2009)."

http://community.livejournal.com/dogsintraining/541715.html

As usual you dont listen, he has observed hundreds of dogs for more than 20 years, not only his pack of more than 30 dogs

How many dogs Jean Donaldson owns?

I would assume then that tigers in a zoo are no tigers anymore because they dont hunt. Or birds in a cage are not birds anymore because they dont fly. All because humans

Well, it's nice to know that I've been observing dogs longer than Cesar.  I don't know how many dogs Jean owns, but that has nothing to do with observations of dogs that were made in the circumstances described in the posted article, nor does Cesar's artifically constructed pack of 30 dogs have anything to do with the findings in Romania.  I find it amusing that you are now using numbers of dogs to make your point, when you ordinarily base your assumptions on your experiences with one dog.  Your reasoning with regard to the tigers and birds is ridiculous.  Of course they are still tigers and birds.  And, dogs that are left to fend for themselves are still dogs.  However, the evidence in Romania suggests that they don't form packs as you would have us believe they would. 

espencer

As usual you dont listen, he has observed hundreds of dogs for more than 20 years, not only his pack of more than 30 dogs

How many dogs Jean Donaldson owns?

I would assume then that tigers in a zoo are no tigers anymore because they dont hunt. Or birds in a cage are not birds anymore because they dont fly. All because humans

It's not a matter of not listening. We listen just fine. I know personally I am refusing to believe what you are saying as fact and truth because I know it's not.

Jean Donaldson is a dog trainer and certified behaviorist. That means she has gone to school and genuinely learned about animal behavior! She is also the director of the SF/SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers. She definitely has the credentials (that Cesar Millan doesn't have).

And we said nothing about tigers not being a tiger because it's kept in a zoo. But if you domesticated tigers (not just 'tamed' a wild animal, but created a new species of tiger that was domesticated), it would no longer be the same as the one running around in the wild, and it would have different behaviors. Dogs are not just wolves that we keep trapped in a yard. Dogs are not wolves - they are not wolves. They are dogs. Stop treating them like wolves, and using wolf behavior to explain dog behavior. They. Are. Not. Wolves. Why would we use the wolf model, the African Wild Dog model, or the coyote or fox model, to explain dog behavior when none of those are dogs? Now stoppit.

What can i say? It works for me. I feel that we are having the same discussion in 2 different threads

Woe.