I'm Renaming "Pack Drive"

I call my dogs a pack but it's just a handy word and doesn't mean I think they are a pack in the way a wolf pack is a pack.  I am also the leader when it comes to my dogs.  Hey, someone has to have a plan around here and the dogs' plans aren't always well thought out. lol   So, that makes me the pack leader.  There are all kinds of leaders.  Good ones, bad ones, fair and unfair, smart and not so much.  I don't worry about considering myself the leader because I know how to be a good leader of dogs. 

espencer

What can i say? It works for me. I feel that we are having the same discussion in 2 different threads

Lots of people do things that work, but could be done in a better way.  It is obtuse to refuse to become better educated about your subject matter.  You idolize one person, Cesar Millan, and refuse to read or listen to anyone else.  Have you read Jean Donaldson's books before criticizing her positions?  Have you read Lindsay, or Coppinger, or Overall, or Pryor?  If not, why not?  Are you afraid their information might start to make some sense, or that your dog might do even better if you adopted their suggestions?

espencer

I would assume then that tigers in a zoo are no tigers anymore because they dont hunt. Or birds in a cage are not birds anymore because they dont fly. All because humans

Comparing tigers to tigers is different than comparing wild canids to domestic dogs.  Very, very different.  Tigers in captivity have not been selectively bred for centuries for specific socially oriented traits.  Zoo tigers are not a different species than domestic tigers.  Dogs are definately a species apart from their wild counterparts.  

There are a LOT of things that humans have done to dogs that are likely to alter their social organization.  First of all, you have added humans into the equation.  I'm fairly certain that my dogs know that I am not a dog, therefore the addition of a different species to the social unit is going to alter things.  Certain breeds have been bred to relate differently to humans.  Some have been bred to work closely with them, and some are much more independent.  Also, different breeds of dogs have been bred to relate differently to other dogs.  I have a feeling that a "pack" of chows is going to interact differently than a "pack" of labs.  Yes, they are all dogs, and in the larger sense all canids, but there are undeniable genetic differences between and among dogs that specifically pertain to social interaction. 

sillysally

Yes, they are all dogs, and in the larger sense all canids, but there are undeniable genetic differences between and among dogs that specifically pertain to social interaction. 

Unfortunately, this is also what the proponents of BSL like to hear.

spiritdogs

but could be done in a better way.

That's your own personal opinion

spiritdogs

and refuse to read or listen to anyone else.

You talk like if we were living in the same house. Let's see, i have Jean Donaldson's book "Mine!", at least she was focused on the subject without talking trash about anybody that didnt agree with her (well almost). I have McConnell's "the other end of the leash" (kind of boring). I have Jan Fennell's "the seven ages of your dog" (didnt agree with her). I have Brenda Aloff's "canine body language- a photographic guide" (pretty helpful), a couple other books from someone you dont like but i could ask you the same question. Have you read his books before criticizing his positions?

Ultimately this is a free country. Are we still talking about the same in 2 different threads?

espencer

Have you read his books before criticizing his positions?

I know I personally have read more than one Cesar Millan book, and have watched all the episodes of multiple seasons of his show. So yes.

tenna

I know I personally have read more than one Cesar Millan book, and have watched all the episodes of multiple seasons of his show. So yes.

I am sure you have

espencer

I am sure you have

This comes across as sarcastic. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. But I know it's true, so that is what matters to me. But thanks for trying.

Angelique

sillysally

Yes, they are all dogs, and in the larger sense all canids, but there are undeniable genetic differences between and among dogs that specifically pertain to social interaction. 

Unfortunately, this is also what the proponents of BSL like to hear.

I am a pittie owner, and therefore know full well the costs of BSL, so please save it.  The fact is that different breeds have different drives, were bred for different purposes in mind, etc--I would think this would be fairly obvious.  It would be stupid for a dobe owner to pretend that a dobe was not bred with guarding ability in mind.  I would be an idiot if I didn't keep in mind that my lab, who was bred to retrieve things with his mouth, just might be more likely to carry random things than other dogs.  How many people buy a yorkie with herding sheep in mind?  I don't see many people buying Great Danes for retrieving shot ducks nor have I seen many Bull Mastiffs out competing in pointer field trials.

It is the people ignorant of their dogs' drives and their breed's traits or pretend they don't exist that do so much damage to dogdom--they are the people whose dogs end up in shelters, the people who buy from bad breeders, the people who fail to socialize their dogs, and the people who are blind to any issues their dog might have, therefore leading to accidents.

sillysally

It is the people ignorant of their dogs' drives and their breed's traits or pretend they don't exist that do so much damage to dogdom--they are the people whose dogs end up in shelters, the people who buy from bad breeders, the people who fail to socialize their dogs, and the people who are blind to any issues their dog might have, therefore leading to accidents.

 Thousands upon thousands of labs as well a pit bulls die in shelters because their owners failed to determine if the traits of both breeds fit their family and needs.  Promoting ignorance of breed traits DOES NOT help dogs.

I guess this is why i am so sick of hearing un scientific unreliable doogerell about hierachechal static packs.

I am pretty experienced with dealing with gun dogs .Telling an adolescent Lab owner that the dog "needs to get stuck into" that you need to show who is boss is a pretty definite way of getting one of two possible results. One is a green needle from owners that just  don't want to spend the rest of their days beltng the crap mentally and physcially out of their dogs. The second is a dog that is very suppresed and owners that are sad that they made such a poor choice of dog.

None of what you would do based on this premise is contingent. The big stress killer for dogs (and Humans) is non contingent punishment . Linddasy is his books (no one in their right minds is going to dismiss out of hand what he has to say regardless of trianing tradition) spends a fiar bit of time talking about non contingent punishment. Have a look. Break out of the tabloid TV shows into the world of people that think for a living and need to stand up before their peers to justify what they say. From experience, doing a UD trial is a cake walk compared to this!

The solutions are pretty simple most of the time. It involves teaching alternate behaviours . SImple ones. Training dunces like me can do it. It saves animals lives, and gives people back the wonderful companion that they thought they had.

As the position is so obviously human based., that dogs must live in a static heirachecal pack despite many observers saying otherwise, one can only suggest that it handily reflects certain popular political and religous mores. I can't think of any other suggestion.Can others?

tenna

You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. But I know it's true

Yeah well i wasnt born yesterday. Do you know how i know?

tenna

I never yell at him, scare him, hurt him, cause unnecessary discomfort

He is actually against everything you described, he has never compared dogs with wolves (the positive only people keep bringing that up only to show their ignorance)

My dog gets all the necessities in life, gets training, is well behaved and unfearful in just about any environment, and is a happy confident dog too. Ignorant people think that our dogs live in tyranny with their legs between their legs 24/7 but like i said before, i know some "20+ years positive people" who needs to have her dog on a muzzle to go to the vet still

Maybe you saw a couple episodes, saw what your brain wanted to see and you based your opinion in it. Granted his techniques are not for people with low IQ, they are too complicated for them to understand them

espence, I know you are not trying to imply that anyone here, particularly any posters in this thread, have low IQ.  I know for a fact that Anne/spiritdogs is a member of American Mensa.  (and, pssst, she's not the only one.)

Cut the personal snarky comments - either you have a valid argument about the topic of discussion, or you don't.  A good argument never needs to drop the discussion into insinuations that people are too stupid to agree with you.  That goes for everyone.

I never like doing this, because some moderators get annoyed. But it is hard to sustain a debate when the other side of the debate is arguing and using methods that really don't hold water. So lets go through them

espencer

He is actually against everything you described, he has never compared dogs with wolves (the positive only people keep bringing that up only to show their ignorance)

This is a common problem We have this with a guru here in Australia . Despite evidence to the contrary he is what ever the fan wants him to be. One minute he is for that arguement, the next he isn't.  The bloke is either a mental gymnast or his fans want to see him in the best light possible which is of course their light.

.

espencer

My dog gets all the necessities in life, gets training, is well behaved and unfearful in just about any environment, and is a happy confident dog too.

Ok, that is what you say, but your observations are not neutral . You own your dog. Put up a video of your dog doing something useful and lets have a look at this dog and  may be we all can make some useful observations. Even if it  was true, it is an Anecdote, among ourselves we dismiss such cases and say that it is a huge trail.. sample size is one. Proves or disproves nothing. Look up some treatment statistics and come back and say the same thing again as if it has value.

"i know some "20+ years positive people" who needs to have her dog on a muzzle to go to the vet still "

Another Anecdote. I know of a trad trainer that can't get her dog to LLW outside of the ring, and another previous top trainer whose dogs are absolutely awful outside of the irng. But it says nothing other than again it is an Anecdote. It is a useful bit of Gossip when you need it. Like the big tough trainer whose dog goes down in the sits all of the time....

espencer

Maybe you saw a couple episodes, saw what your brain wanted to see and you based your opinion in it. Granted his techniques are not for people

Well i have done an edit. I just saw what i wanted to see of what you wrote .IMHO  I find him a clumsy thug as a trainer whose methods defy me. I have worked both sides of the fence as a trainer, and over a decade ao, i would have thought he was Father Christmas. Now i just think he is just a naughty boy. (I am using a saying from Monty Python's "Life of Brian";) just in case it doesn't translate cross culturally.

 Oh man, I go away for ten days and miss an in interesting conversation. Well, it would be interesting if it hadn't become one of those silly arguments where people don't even seem to be talking about the same thing.

Out of interest, I spent a month tramping around in the bush in the Top End down here where dingoes are quite common and there's lots of big game. I saw lots of dingoes, but only once did I ever see more than one at a time, and it was a pair. I saw one wallaby kill and it was a joey, way too little to warrant group hunting. From what I've heard from people that have kept dingoes, they are intensely attached to one person if given the chance, but they still run amok at every oppportunity and during that time, are not remotely interested in being social. At least until they are tired from killing every cat, chicken or sheep in the neighbourhood and happened to spot someone they live with.

To me, dogs are social in the way that rabbits, horses, chickens, killer whales and people are social. They are just trying to minimise costly fights and maximise getting what they want, but they certainly like being with other members of their species. I am not sure about this, but at the moment I think they are not social in the way that some primates or African Wild Dogs are social. That is, they are not obligate socialites. They don't need other dogs to live.

I call a group of dogs that live together a family, because that's what they act like to me. Erik is terribly obnoxious with Kivi, but when he meets a dog outside of the family he turns into a model puppy and if you never saw him at home you would never imagine that he throws himself at Kivi and bites him if he interrupts a game of tug, or that Erik will pry food out of Kivi's mouth if he gets the chance. Erik is obnoxious to me as well, and I take it as a sign of how relaxed he is around me that he'll tell me he hates me if I push him rather than showing me what an expert in appeasement gestures he is. He doesn't push me around like he does Kivi, but only because he tried that and it didn't work. He is not obnoxious to people outside the family, either. I'm a lot bigger than he is. I am quite pleased that he doesn't ever shoot appeasement gestures to me. He's confident that despite my size I won't hurt him. Kivi is the same. If they get to know another dog or person very well, they loosen up around them and start treating them more like a member of the family.

 He came to an a priori conclusion and then simply shoehorned everything he saw to fit his idea about packs.  Modern ethologists haven't abandoned this idea to be politically correct but because the theory and the predictions that come with it never panned out.  It is actually those who tenaciously stick to this idea of packs that are biased and wave their hands to dismiss any evidence that questions their conclusion.