I'm Renaming "Pack Drive"

spiritdogs

I intend, from now on, to think of "pack drive" as "affinity drive" - because I think that dogs really are NOT pack animals, but, rather, social animals. 

From an emotional Neuro Science point of view, pack drive is the social bonds that prevent the PANIC circuits of the brain form being activated. It is almost R- in some ways.

I'm sure if you remove humans from the dog's lifes they would be back to their roots, just like bears and wolves, if they can become scavengers (thanks to human's waste) instead of hunters they would.

spiritdogs

because I think that dogs really are NOT pack animals

spiritdogs

despite their genetic similarity to wolves, do not form static packs and hunt cooperatively

I disagree, this is a video that shows what happens when you remove the human out of the dog's life. Maybe we can tell Jean Donaldson to watch it too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbLSHeS1O7s

The only thing i can say is "there is no worst blind person than the one who does not want to see"

 What i saw was a set of dingos that had defined roles take a kangaroo out. It would be interesting to know how long the group had been together and how long they stayed together afterwards. The video doesn't prove or disprove this statement.

What i always find intersting is how the specialist roles develop and how the dingos commnicate in the hunt so that the most effective outcome is achieved. Just goes to show you cna have pack affinity and prey drive all together ... or are those concpets a tad limited and need to be repaced with some notions more grounded in observation and science?

What is even more interesting is a current study that is following many, many "village dogs" that live in one of the many large Mexico dumps. There was an amazing article in the last Chronicle of the Dog (APDT magazine) that talked about village dogs, and what happens when dogs go back to their 'roots' - as scavengers rather than pack animals. None of the dogs in the village dump had a pack, they each had their own "areas" in which they lived. All the dogs cohabitated, there was little to no aggression and disputes were settled with subtle body language and calming signals rather than with displays and aggression. Hugely interesting article, and there was a video link attached with it. If I can get public access to it I'll post it here.

poodleOwned

It would be interesting to know how long the group had been together and how long they stayed together afterwards. The video doesn't prove or disprove this statement.

Yeah I'm sure that that skill level of hunting gets accomplished by just all getting together one day, hunt and then all of them moving on their own way. Why stay together for longer right?

Let's watch this video, the level of communication during the hunt is amazing, they dont reach this by being together for just a couple months and each move on with their own lives afterwards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6swfVakcf4

If after watching this, people still think that dogs are not pack animals or hunt together then those people are in pure denial

espencer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6swfVakcf4

 Am I stupid? Isn't that a video of Hyenas hunting together? If so, they are more closely related to cats than dogs.

A rose by any other name, is still a rose.

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

espencer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6swfVakcf4

 Am I stupid? Isn't that a video of Hyenas hunting together? If so, they are more closely related to cats than dogs.

African Wild Dogs.  They live in related packs, so there are blood relations between the groups to some extent.  It's not just a group of completely unrelated dogs living together for the sake of hunting.

I actually observed a "pack" of semi-feral dogs in Indiana.  The dogs had formed a loose grouping of dogs that had been dumped in the countryside.  There was no obvious leader and one obviously pregnant bitch was dead.  There were over 40 puppies from who knows which of the bitches.  I was working animal control at the time and was trying to bring them in.  I got most of the worm and flea infested puppies except for some of the larger ones that ran from me even when food was present.  None of the adults would let us get close.  They did not move as a pack but more like at arms reach, always checking on each other so as to not get too close.  I was only able to catch 2 of the adults via live traps before being told I was spending too much time doing that.

tashakota

African Wild Dogs.  They live in related packs, so there are blood relations between the groups to some extent.  It's not just a group of completely unrelated dogs living together for the sake of hunting.

Ah, OK. Thank you for clarifying. I was so confused as to why a pack of unrelated animals (as in not closely related to dogs genetically) hunting would serve as a useful comparison.

espencer

I'm sure if you remove humans from the dog's lifes they would be back to their roots, just like bears and wolves, if they can become scavengers (thanks to human's waste) instead of hunters they would.

spiritdogs

because I think that dogs really are NOT pack animals

spiritdogs

despite their genetic similarity to wolves, do not form static packs and hunt cooperatively

I disagree, this is a video that shows what happens when you remove the human out of the dog's life. Maybe we can tell Jean Donaldson to watch it too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbLSHeS1O7s

The only thing i can say is "there is no worst blind person than the one who does not want to see.

 

 

 

 

 

Well that point of view certainly goes both ways.  I have to admit, I saw this somewhat the same way as PoodleOwned did.  In any case, what would happen years after complete absence of humans is not what we are discussing here.  Perhaps dogs would eventually pack up - the fact is that they did not form *stable* packs.  And, incidentally, a group of dogs living behind a fence in LA, is not a stable pack - because they have not made the decision to be together as a group.  A human made the decision for them.  The fact that they don't fight with one another does not mean that they would choose each other as companions if they were on their own.  Nor, does it mean that, even if they did, they would remain together as a group permanently.

Angelique

A rose by any other name, is still a rose.

spiritdogs

Angelique

A rose by any other name, is still a rose.

Actually, only sort of.  There are wild roses and there are cultivated roses.  Genetically, they are similar, yet they have different habits, for example, some climb and some don't.  If you are going to refute what was presented, at least give me an argument that has an empirical basis - then I'm willing to see your point of view. 

Not if you're going to use big scary words!

They are all still roses.

Simple words to describe roses: wild, climbing, tea, old garden

Simple words to describe canids: coyotes, jackals, wolves, dogs

Roses are all roses, but have different characteristics

Canids are all canids, but have different characteristics

Angelique

spiritdogs

Angelique

A rose by any other name, is still a rose.

Actually, only sort of.  There are wild roses and there are cultivated roses.  Genetically, they are similar, yet they have different habits, for example, some climb and some don't.  If you are going to refute what was presented, at least give me an argument that has an empirical basis - then I'm willing to see your point of view. 

Not if you're going to use big scary words!

They are all still roses.