Positive Training as a Philosophy - Clicker Trainer vs. Training With a Clicker

Coming late to the discussion, I think this notion of clicker training versus training with a clicker is really important. I started out as a training-with-a-clicker person when I crossed over and it worked quite nicely. Then I learnt what happens when you do real clicker training and was stunned, really. What I'd done with Kivi when I didn't know what I was doing was way more effective than the correctional methods I'd done with Penny. But when I took that extra step I finally realised what everyone was raving about. Kivi is the first dog I have known personally that comes and glues himself in front of me when he thinks we're training and won't shift until I put everything away and tell him to go away. It seems like a small thing, but until then, my experience had been that you have to have a dog on leash to train them and use a lot of repetition. I love the light in my dogs' eyes when I train with them, but even more I love the way that they see it as a game. A puzzle that is thoroughly solvable. Looking at it in detail has opened my eyes to just how clever and subtle you can be with rewards-based training. It's a whole new level of complexity to me, and makes training a lot more fun for both me and my dogs.

You have just captured the essence of what this thread was supposed to be about. 

And, Liesje, your contention that a non-drivey dog needs compulsion is interesting.  That was what traditional trainers told me about Sioux - if I didn't force her, she would never retrieve that dumbbell.  Enter Lonnie Olson's backchained retrieve done with a clicker and Sioux retrieves her  dumbbell and no on ever forced her to open her mouth, or pinched her ear...  I have to admit that I do agree with you that it is appropriate to fit the dog to its intended occupation, and that drivey dogs do better in Schutzhund or ring work.  I don't endorse coercion - that would be akin to peeling my fingers off the plane and forcing me to skydive when I hate flying and would prefer to jump fences on horseback (which scares the crap out of some skydivers, who think I'm nuts).

spiritdogs

And, Liesje, your contention that a non-drivey dog needs compulsion is interesting.  That was what traditional trainers told me about Sioux - if I didn't force her, she would never retrieve that dumbbell.  Enter Lonnie Olson's backchained retrieve done with a clicker and Sioux retrieves her  dumbbell and no on ever forced her to open her mouth, or pinched her ear...  I have to admit that I do agree with you that it is appropriate to fit the dog to its intended occupation, and that drivey dogs do better in Schutzhund or ring work.  I don't endorse coercion - that would be akin to peeling my fingers off the plane and forcing me to skydive when I hate flying and would prefer to jump fences on horseback (which scares the crap out of some skydivers, who think I'm nuts).

Yes, I stand by my statement, not that I condone this, but as a statement of fact.  If the dog is NOT motivated by the food, toys, or praise, the only way to train it is with coercion.  If the dog has enough drive and motivation for the positive rewards to learn the skills and perform them correctly, then the dog shouldn't be labeled non/no/low-drive.  It has nothing to do with being a traditional trainer or not.  How the skills are suppose to look vary widely across venues.  The retrieves for the AKC obedience ring are not the same as the SchH retrieves.  The SchH protection is very, very different from street work, ringsport, mondio, etc.  In SchH you cannot train *every* dog to score 100-100-100, regardless of method.  It's not an activity where the goal is making it possible for every dog to succeed, quite the opposite.  If the dog doesn't have some inate desire to do the work and/or has no desire for the motivators, then you have two choices: either do something else with your dog, or you will have to force it to work.  I would choose the former, which is why I don't do SchH with a dog like Coke, and when I want to do SchH I choose a dog with that in mind, a dog predisposed to the work.

Many, if not most SchH trainers backchain retrieves.  Again, not a new concept.  Short vid of a dog with a really nice hold:

http://www.og-schwabmuenchen.de/download/Isa_2008-01-05.wmv

This dog clearly has the aptitude and drive for the ball/food.  Backchaining does not indicate a dog lacking drive. 

Liesje

  If the dog is NOT motivated by the food, toys, or praise, the only way to train it is with coercion.

I think not being able to find something to motivate the dog positively is not a failure on the dog's part, but the owner's part. There are obviously things a dog wants in life, even if it is not traditionally motivated by food or twos. Some dogs you can make into a toy or food motivated dog, some you can't. But it's a failure of the handler to not be able to find SOMETHING to motivate the dog.

And I am of the camp that if you *have to* use coercion or force to train a dog to do a certain activity, you just simply need to not train it.

tenna

Liesje

  If the dog is NOT motivated by the food, toys, or praise, the only way to train it is with coercion.

 

I think not being able to find something to motivate the dog positively is not a failure on the dog's part, but the owner's part. There are obviously things a dog wants in life, even if it is not traditionally motivated by food or twos. Some dogs you can make into a toy or food motivated dog, some you can't. But it's a failure of the handler to not be able to find SOMETHING to motivate the dog.

And I am of the camp that if you *have to* use coercion or force to train a dog to do a certain activity, you just simply need to not train it.

I'd like to meet such a dog who absolutely had no reinforcers. Perhaps a dog who's next to death, but a healthy dog, there's something in the world he wants. I think the trouble is in controlling access to it so that you're able to use it as a reinforcer when you want to. A dog who is difficult to find reinforcers for might not go on to the same things as one who has a wide variety of reinforcers, but he can certainly learn something.

 I agree with tenna. If you need coercion, why are you even training it? I'm yet to meet a dog that is not motivated by anything useful, but I hear they exist. It irritates me a little that we always end up talking about marginal dogs rather than typical dogs.

 I agree with you teena, if the dog is alive he must be motivated by something, anything!   Even if its just hunger, thirst and the need to eliminate - but like you write, if that's all that the dog finds motivating I would suspect a neurological/psych problem. 

This is why when people complain about crazy, out of control pups I always respond that they should consider themselves lucky.  A crazy puppy is a motivated puppy and that makes for a great training partner.

Corinthian

 I agree with you teena, if the dog is alive he must be motivated by something, anything!   Even if its just hunger, thirst and the need to eliminate - but like you write, if that's all that the dog finds motivating I would suspect a neurological/psych problem. 

Definitely! If a dog was so unmotivated, and so uninterested in training for a certain sport, that you had to use force and punishment to get him to perform... well that just seems mean and unnecessary, and doesn't sound like a fun time to be had by either the trainer or the dog! I'd say cut your losses and get a different dog!

Corinthian

This is why when people complain about crazy, out of control pups I always respond that they should consider themselves lucky.  A crazy puppy is a motivated puppy and that makes for a great training partner.

I agree! I would much rather have a crazy, play driven dog, than an independent dog that is not motivated by treats OR play. Haha.

Corinthian

I agree with you teena, if the dog is alive he must be motivated by something, anything!   Even if its just hunger, thirst and the need to eliminate - but like you write, if that's all that the dog finds motivating I would suspect a neurological/psych problem. 

 

This is why when people complain about crazy, out of control pups I always respond that they should consider themselves lucky.  A crazy puppy is a motivated puppy and that makes for a great training partner.

I guess it boils down to what you are trying to do. In the main the motivation problems that i have seen are usually human problems. They are often overfed over stressed dogs and dogs that won't play at all because they just don't feel safe around their owners because they either don't trust them to look after them, or they feel scared of them.

The hardest dogs i have worked with to motivate are 

1) Getting a whippet to track (it did without any compulsion)

2) Getting an American Bulldog to do anything, it was very over weight and had a thyroid problem. (It did a little satisfied it's owner)

3) A Rhodesian Ridgeback that was having a dose of the terrible twos and was entire. (it landed up doing a basic obedience title. A bit of P- was used to align it's agenda with it's owner's agenda)

All of them opened up a window that was able to be used.

tenna

Liesje

  If the dog is NOT motivated by the food, toys, or praise, the only way to train it is with coercion.

 

I think not being able to find something to motivate the dog positively is not a failure on the dog's part, but the owner's part. There are obviously things a dog wants in life, even if it is not traditionally motivated by food or twos. Some dogs you can make into a toy or food motivated dog, some you can't. But it's a failure of the handler to not be able to find SOMETHING to motivate the dog.

I think there is a lot of truth in this.  All dogs want SOMETHING.  BUT - when you're talking about a sport or activity that requires drive, it's not enough to find something the dog wants, you have to find (or create) something that the dog wants SO BADLY that he will perform tasks that are very complex, or that require a great deal of effort or courage.  

Some dogs are more motivated than others.  Some have many things that motivate them, or even just one thing that they would walk through fire for!  These are the "drive-y" dogs that I think Liesje is talking about.  I can train my dog to a degree with, say, his tennis ball.  But he lacks Nikon's motivation and drive!  I remember Liesje saying that Nikon would rather have his ball than breathe, sometimes.... well that's drive, and it's something my dog does not have and I would defy the best of trainers to create it in him to the same extent that Nikon has it!  Not all dogs have it in abundance, and a failure to create it is not a failure on the part of the person, IMO.... it's just somethig that is not there.  You can't get blood from a stone.  To imply otherwise is to deny dogs as a species the richness and diversity of personality, temperament and preference that we humans have, to make them into fur-clad stimulus-response robots.... and that's not right.

tenna

And I am of the camp that if you *have to* use coercion or force to train a dog to do a certain activity, you just simply need to not train it.

I agree, and I think Liesje, spiritdogs and others have said the same

Liesje

spiritdogs

And, Liesje, your contention that a non-drivey dog needs compulsion is interesting.  That was what traditional trainers told me about Sioux - if I didn't force her, she would never retrieve that dumbbell.  Enter Lonnie Olson's backchained retrieve done with a clicker and Sioux retrieves her  dumbbell and no on ever forced her to open her mouth, or pinched her ear...  I have to admit that I do agree with you that it is appropriate to fit the dog to its intended occupation, and that drivey dogs do better in Schutzhund or ring work.  I don't endorse coercion - that would be akin to peeling my fingers off the plane and forcing me to skydive when I hate flying and would prefer to jump fences on horseback (which scares the crap out of some skydivers, who think I'm nuts).

 

Yes, I stand by my statement, not that I condone this, but as a statement of fact.  If the dog is NOT motivated by the food, toys, or praise, the only way to train it is with coercion.  If the dog has enough drive and motivation for the positive rewards to learn the skills and perform them correctly, then the dog shouldn't be labeled non/no/low-drive.  It has nothing to do with being a traditional trainer or not.  How the skills are suppose to look vary widely across venues.  The retrieves for the AKC obedience ring are not the same as the SchH retrieves.  The SchH protection is very, very different from street work, ringsport, mondio, etc.  In SchH you cannot train *every* dog to score 100-100-100, regardless of method.  It's not an activity where the goal is making it possible for every dog to succeed, quite the opposite.  If the dog doesn't have some inate desire to do the work and/or has no desire for the motivators, then you have two choices: either do something else with your dog, or you will have to force it to work.  I would choose the former, which is why I don't do SchH with a dog like Coke, and when I want to do SchH I choose a dog with that in mind, a dog predisposed to the work.

Many, if not most SchH trainers backchain retrieves.  Again, not a new concept.  Short vid of a dog with a really nice hold:

http://www.og-schwabmuenchen.de/download/Isa_2008-01-05.wmv

This dog clearly has the aptitude and drive for the ball/food.  Backchaining does not indicate a dog lacking drive. 

The idea that you must coerce a dog because you cannot find what motivates him is patently ridiculous and untrue.  All dogs are motivated by something. Now, that does not mean that I don't agree that some dogs are more suited to a particular activity than others.  And, I commend you for recognizing that, and not forcing a dog without aptitude to do an activity that it is not suited for.  However, there is certainly a difference between a dog learning the activity, and becoming a stellar performer in it.  As with people, we aren't all stars.  But, according to your own argument, a dog that does have the aptitude really shouldn't need coercion...

No, back chaining does not indicate that a dog has no drive, but it's a much better way to train a dog that doesn't have a lot of drive than ear pinches are.

The obedience retrieves are different than the Sch retrieves (different doesn't mean better IMO), but there are Sch trainers using positive training to get the Sch retrieves, so it shouldn't be an issue that the mechanics of the retrieve are different.

To be honest, I know trainers who did Sch for years and got out of it, because once they trained using positive methods, they felt like corvus - and could not go back to a world where dogs' feelings were frequently so blatantly ignored.  (Not saying this is you, but I think you know that there are some pretty insensitive people who just want the wins - enough to slap that e-collar on without so much as a thought)

Anne, I'm not seeing your point.  You're kind of preaching to the choir.  I've never seen a forced retrieve done and don't ever plan on using one.  I'm sorry your friends felt they had to quit their sport over training methods.  I thought it went without saying but not ALL SchH trainers and clubs are created equal.  Just like any other type of trainer there are people out there who have no idea what they are doing and there are those that do.  The attitude of your posts and threads seems to be that the entire sport is corrupted because of some stupid people who have nothing better to do than coerce their dogs into an activity that the dog lacks the drive, motivation, and instinct to do.  I guess I could say the same about any other form of obedience.  To be honest I've seen more people using "traditional" methods (like choke corrections) in the AKC sports I've trained than in SchH.  Some of the most appalling things I've seen were at agility competitions and from some local trainers which is why I left the agility club.  Maybe I just got lucky but the SchH trainers around here have the best skills at reading dogs in general and most of them do all-breed training and behavior and are CGC evaluators.  One of the guys I really like helped pioneer the concept of using animals as therapy dogs and even as a nationally known SchH trainer and competitor he was one of the first TDI evaluators and uses his own SchH and police dogs for therapy work.

The bottom line is that anyone who's spent enough time actually doing the sport can quite quickly tell the difference between a dog trained entirely or mostly under pressure and a dog trained with the correct balance of pressure (I'm not talking about corrections but about what drives are utilized in protection, which has nothing to do with corrections and everything to do with the quality of the helper work).  I don't need to be patronized repeatedly about this especially from someone who seems to have a very tainted attitude about the sport to begin with.  You can talk all you want about the "traditional" trainers and the people you've met and whatnot but it goes in one ear and out the other. I'm not that person and I don't train with those people.  If anyone is interested in how WE train, all they have to do is ask, or better yet, go out and actually see for yourselves.

Chuffy

I think there is a lot of truth in this.  All dogs want SOMETHING.  BUT - when you're talking about a sport or activity that requires drive, it's not enough to find something the dog wants, you have to find (or create) something that the dog wants SO BADLY that he will perform tasks that are very complex, or that require a great deal of effort or courage.

Right, I understand this. I am not saying any dog can be trained to go get at SchH III title. I am saying that dogs can be motivated by more than just food, treats, or toys, and it's a failure on the owner's part to find it. I'm not saying a dog can get trained in every sport merely because it's motivated to get onto the couch, chew frisbees, or get ear rubs, but they can certainly become a well behaved member of the home with those motivators.

Liesje

Anne, I'm not seeing your point.  You're kind of preaching to the choir.  I've never seen a forced retrieve done and don't ever plan on using one.  I'm sorry your friends felt they had to quit their sport over training methods.  I thought it went without saying but not ALL SchH trainers and clubs are created equal.  Just like any other type of trainer there are people out there who have no idea what they are doing and there are those that do.  The attitude of your posts and threads seems to be that the entire sport is corrupted because of some stupid people who have nothing better to do than coerce their dogs into an activity that the dog lacks the drive, motivation, and instinct to do.  I guess I could say the same about any other form of obedience.  To be honest I've seen more people using "traditional" methods (like choke corrections) in the AKC sports I've trained than in SchH.  Some of the most appalling things I've seen were at agility competitions and from some local trainers which is why I left the agility club.  Maybe I just got lucky but the SchH trainers around here have the best skills at reading dogs in general and most of them do all-breed training and behavior and are CGC evaluators.  One of the guys I really like helped pioneer the concept of using animals as therapy dogs and even as a nationally known SchH trainer and competitor he was one of the first TDI evaluators and uses his own SchH and police dogs for therapy work.

The bottom line is that anyone who's spent enough time actually doing the sport can quite quickly tell the difference between a dog trained entirely or mostly under pressure and a dog trained with the correct balance of pressure (I'm not talking about corrections but about what drives are utilized in protection, which has nothing to do with corrections and everything to do with the quality of the helper work).  I don't need to be patronized repeatedly about this especially from someone who seems to have a very tainted attitude about the sport to begin with.  You can talk all you want about the "traditional" trainers and the people you've met and whatnot but it goes in one ear and out the other. I'm not that person and I don't train with those people.  If anyone is interested in how WE train, all they have to do is ask, or better yet, go out and actually see for yourselves.

Well, first of all, I'm not trying to patronize anyone, nor did I ever say that all Sch trainers are created equal.  If that were the case, I would not repeatedly, over the years, make the case that people study Dildei and Booth as well as the other proponents of the sport.  What I find patronizing is the attitude that prevails here when positive trainers, who are equally as observant about dogs, say that they can often tell a dog that has had coercive training versus a dog that has been trained positively.  We are then basically accused of idiocy and told how happy all your (not you, personally) dogs are when they are working.  Well some are, but some definitely aren't.  Not too long ago here, I viewed a video that I thought had a very accurate heel done by a very anxious dog.  I did not make any comment about it to the owner, and the fact that the dog was anxious might be unrelated to the training method, but the angst was there nevertheless.  What usually tips the hand is when you ask the dog to offer random behavior that you can shape.  A lot of them just sit there waiting to be told what to do, not able to take a chance on offering something that may not work - depressing and sad to see.  If you don't train this way, I'm very glad.  But, on the other hand, I wish you could have the experience of training a dog from scratch with much more minimal coercion. 

Again, preaching to the choir. 

I do not train with coercion.  Most of my training (besides tracking which must be on a line and protection also on a line) is done with a "naked" dog.  Besides being in the show ring last weekend, Nikon hasn't worn a collar of any sort in over a week.  ALL of the foundation work our SchH club does is with free shaping.  Ball or food, usually food for starters with the puppies.  Everyone uses a clicker.  Our TD still uses a clicker and food with his SchH3 national competitor Malinois.  I have yet to see a more "operant" dog, as far as how freely and delightfully the dog offers behaviors and how quickly he learns.  A proactive dog is the goal of any good trainer and SchH trainer.  A reactive dog is only going to progress so far.  I do not see how this is any different that what you are saying or maybe I'm missing something....

I'm not really sure where you get off assuming I have never trained a dog from scratch with minimal coercion.