Positive Training as a Philosophy - Clicker Trainer vs. Training With a Clicker

spiritdogs

The obedience retrieves are different than the Sch retrieves (different doesn't mean better IMO), but there are Sch trainers using positive training to get the Sch retrieves, so it shouldn't be an issue that the mechanics of the retrieve are different.

To be honest, I know trainers who did Sch for years and got out of it, because once they trained using positive methods, they felt like corvus - and could not go back to a world where dogs' feelings were frequently so blatantly ignored.  (Not saying this is you, but I think you know that there are some pretty insensitive people who just want the wins - enough to slap that e-collar on without so much as a thought)

 

Oh retrieves! When i was training Luci as a young pup, there was a common idea that was well spruiked on an Aussie list that you really needed to ear pinch a retrieve to get reliability.  The bonehead that was most vocal in pushing this concept always fell back on breed selection. IMHO his breed would play with a stone if properly handled!

Poodles have a great chase for something moving, but if it stops interest stops. A dead dumb bell elicits zero response. You will also notice in my videos that Luci has a back of mouth hold. We taught this because she doesn't have one of her front canines. Her retrieve was taught with a clicker and by splitting and she has failed a retrieve in a trial once... for anticipation. It was split second, where the judge waits for you to dob yourself in. I am a instinctive rather than formulatic clicker trainer. The idea of going through a numbered list fills me with intense boredom.

Now at a seminar not too much before the first videos were taken Bonhead did a retrieve with is dog. One retrieve becuase the dog moved out of hand range and wouldn't do another. I have no idea what was wrong....

Luci at her very young age did several including over high jumps in front of a largish crowd.

Now being a rational person, after such an event you would slope away and re-evaluate your methods. No such luck. The ear pinch method is still being rolled out and proposed. Of course the problem with the non retrieving dog is "lack of drive"...my a*****.. BTW i am an Extremist...

The problem with getting R+ across is people and the small number of highly macho fog horns with poor credentials poor training skills and great sales skills suggesting otherwise.

These definitions just seem to be more fences being put up between trainers in an attempt to support the "us" vs "them" mentality, while the poor dogs and owners get caught in between all of the mud slinging, propaganda, lies, and finger pointing.

Liesje

I'm not really sure where you get off assuming I have never trained a dog from scratch with minimal coercion. 

I guess because you are so willing to defend coercion as necessary.   Perhaps you were speaking of others, though, so if that is the case,  you certainly have my apologies.

Angelique

These definitions just seem to be more fences being put up between trainers in an attempt to support the "us" vs "them" mentality, while the poor dogs and owners get caught in between all of the mud slinging, propaganda, lies, and finger pointing.

  Actually, I think we were just having a discussion on a hot topic.  

spiritdogs

Liesje

I'm not really sure where you get off assuming I have never trained a dog from scratch with minimal coercion. 

 

I guess because you are so willing to defend coercion as necessary.   Perhaps you were speaking of others, though, so if that is the case,  you certainly have my apologies.

 

 

Well, just because I agree with a statement made in an article does not mean I defend, let alone use those methods.  I concede that Mt Everest is the tallest though I have never been there and don't ever plan to go....

No, I'm not "speaking of others".  I keep reading "traditional trainers said this" or "this article says this" and I'm saying that I don't care what other people do or say because *I* actually train the sport and will train my dogs as I see fit.  How other people train means nothing to me because it's not the type of activity where you can seek advice on a forum from people who have not seen the dog work and/or have never worked a dog in the sport and expect to make progress.  It's too much to ask of my dog to intentionally elevate the level of arousal and then experiment.

Angelique

These definitions just seem to be more fences being put up between trainers in an attempt to support the "us" vs "them" mentality, while the poor dogs and owners get caught in between all of the mud slinging, propaganda, lies, and finger pointing.

I think that there is a problem with general dog training knowledge in the general public. I was reminded very sharply of this when i was down at tha local park. My youngest Sam got to play with a couple of trad trained borders who were very very flat. Of course my two look like fizz bottles with the tops taken off, which is just fine by me. After i get the "have they ever been to dog school ?" bit i realise that i have to do the they can stay too bit which unfortunately is often much more impressive to them than the very dynamic work that he does. The stays are the easy bits. I then have to show that despite this energy they will do "hard stuff" like "heeling off lead ".

 The saddest damage done by CM and fellow travellers isn't even the very harsh methods that people like me with low IQ  see on TV. it is the continuation of the ideal of a dog that is truely suppresed. If you want a quiet cuddly thing, please please please get a teddy bear. If you want a living breathing animal think about a dog. You can't fight those continual messages on the box, it is way too big.

I guess that the way i cope is to self care. To train with others of a similar ilk . To put the onus back on the CMs of this world and ask that they take resposibility for taking my local club class. They need to take responisbility for the messages that they make because i sure as hell have given up and we volunteers hear far too much about these rotten methods and how dumb we are.

Liesje

Some of the most appalling things I've seen were at agility competitions and from some local trainers which is why I left the agility club.

I advise you not to delve too deep into the hunting/shooting world.... Yipes, there are things that go on there which I am guessing would make the most "hardcore" ScH trainer's toes curl!

Doesn't mean that the sport is at fault, though... only that some of the people who participate are cruel, ignorant or narrow minded.... and perhaps they - and their dogs - would be better off doing something else.

tenna

Chuffy

I think there is a lot of truth in this.  All dogs want SOMETHING.  BUT - when you're talking about a sport or activity that requires drive, it's not enough to find something the dog wants, you have to find (or create) something that the dog wants SO BADLY that he will perform tasks that are very complex, or that require a great deal of effort or courage.

Right, I understand this. I am not saying any dog can be trained to go get at SchH III title. I am saying that dogs can be motivated by more than just food, treats, or toys, and it's a failure on the owner's part to find it. I'm not saying a dog can get trained in every sport merely because it's motivated to get onto the couch, chew frisbees, or get ear rubs, but they can certainly become a well behaved member of the home with those motivators.

Maybe I got confused, but I thought you were responding to something Lies said about coercion being "necessary".... that is, if the dog's drive is too low and the person is adamant to continue in the sport (even if the dog is unsuited to it).  Lies ALSO said that the better option is to find a sport the dog is better suited to rather than persist and use coercion.  

I'm finding it amusing to watch people who agree argue.... It's like when I'm shaping with my dog and I FIND something to reward.... well it seems some folks will FIND something to argue about.

Some interesting responses, here. We used to have a member that trains K-9. And he had a screening process. A "hard" dog could make it, a "soft" dog probably wouldn't. The hard dog is willing to go for the bite and can be trained to control the bite. A soft dog doesn't immediately go for the bite and will use other behaviors to diffuse the situation, such as posturing, growling, even air snapping.

And yes, every dog has a motivation or reward, even if it's the job, itself. Certainly, we have a few that are in competitive dog sports and need drivey dogs that can focus. But many people here are needing a dog that is relaxed and biddable around the house, with children, and other pets, and even strangers. That's a different training need than ScH or K-9 or agility, or even hunting. Many times, in fact, we need a dog's drive sublimated or expressed in other ways so as not to endanger co-habitants. Well, since most dogs lash out in fear, the idea should be to remove fear. And if a certain dog is not responsive to the easy way of training and, instead, needs the harder training of a working dog, should that dog be around a family that doesn't have a working job for it? Certainly, there should be a better match of dog to the environment he/she will be in.

And I still forgot to reply to the actual thread title. Clicker training might said to include free-shaping, as opposed to training with a clicker, wherein the clicker is a marker to signify reward for a desired, cued behavior.

ron2

Some interesting responses, here. We used to have a member that trains K-9. And he had a screening process. A "hard" dog could make it, a "soft" dog probably wouldn't. The hard dog is willing to go for the bite and can be trained to control the bite. A soft dog doesn't immediately go for the bite and will use other behaviors to diffuse the situation, such as posturing, growling, even air snapping.

And yes, every dog has a motivation or reward, even if it's the job, itself. Certainly, we have a few that are in competitive dog sports and need drivey dogs that can focus. But many people here are needing a dog that is relaxed and biddable around the house, with children, and other pets, and even strangers. That's a different training need than ScH or K-9 or agility, or even hunting. Many times, in fact, we need a dog's drive sublimated or expressed in other ways so as not to endanger co-habitants. Well, since most dogs lash out in fear, the idea should be to remove fear. And if a certain dog is not responsive to the easy way of training and, instead, needs the harder training of a working dog, should that dog be around a family that doesn't have a working job for it? Certainly, there should be a better match of dog to the environment he/she will be in.

I do think it's important to match the dog to the job it's intended for, whether that be herding, Sch, or family companion.  Of course, we all know that the general public is likely to choose a dog based on how cute it is, or that it looked forlorn sitting in the back of its cage at the shelter, and almost never on how suitable it really is for their particular lifestyle, although I think we are making some inroads in that.  Personally, I think that if you have to use coercion and punishment, you have to question whether your dog is suited for the discipline you have chosen for it, or whether your skill as a trainer is lacking at all (I think we all have to continually question that, it's not directed at you because of your method.)  When I have a dog fail at something, the first place I look is to my handling or training, not to the dog's intentions.   While dogs are certainly capable of more intelligence than most people give them credit for, I attribute most cases of stubbornness or disobedience to confusion or just lack of sufficient proofing for location, distance, duration, etc.

How other people train means nothing to me because it's not the type of activity where you can seek advice on a forum from people who have not seen the dog work and/or have never worked a dog in the sport and expect to make progress.

No one can advise on an individual dog, that's true, but there are certain scientific principles of learning that are not in question.  All quadrants work, the only question is which ones you use, and how willing you are to go to any great lengths to avoid some of them.