Positive Training as a Philosophy - Clicker Trainer vs. Training With a Clicker

sillysally

huski

If you get the training right as a pup there is no need for a head collar or prong or any tool like that later on. 

 

That's not always the case.  Jack did NOT pull on the leash at all as a pup and was properly leash trained.  Then he had health problems.  He started limping and it took months of crate rest and different vets to find out that he had elbow dysplasia and needed surgery.  After the surgery he had to be on more crate rest with a few five minute breaks a day on leash to go potty.  YOU try to convince a 10 month old lab cooped up in a crate the majority of the time that he shouldn't get excited and pull.  Once he got into the habit, it was all over. 

Probably if he had not had any health issues he would have been in a flat collar the whole time, you can't always predict these things though.

Like I said, if you get the training right in the beginning you won't have problems down the track. In your dog's case, his illness prevented you from being able to get the training done as consistently as you'd like, yeah? Which is why you had problems later on.

Kim_MacMillan

But wearing something over the bridge of the nose is a socialization factor, not a training factor. I don't think there is any harm in putting a head halter on a puppy before a meal and taking it off after, or putting it on (with no leash attached) during a three minute training session. Like I said, it's not about training, it's about having the pup learn to accepts it lest it ever be needed.

I won't ever use head collars on my dogs so it will never be necessary for me to "socialise" them to something that IMO is completely unnecessary to use with a puppy. And what would be the point in purchasing a tool you are not likely to ever use?

You don't know what may crop up as a dog grows up, that goes beyond "simple" training like LLW. And not all dogs are at all easy to teach to walk nicely on a leash - just as there is no one-tool-fits-all, there is most certainly no one-LLW-method for all dogs. Different breed groups, and different personalities, work better using different techniques. It's nice to have it as an option if the need ever arose, than to shoot yourself in the foot if you do need it someday and you never taught your dog to accept it.

I agree that there is no one size fits all training. But I strongly believe that using a head collar on a puppy, in order to teach loose leash walking is completely and utterly unecessary.

There are plenty of people, in fact the vast majority, who use head collars on their adult dogs without ever having gotten them "used to them" as puppies. If the posts in this thread are any indication apparently it is quite easy to do so. If head collars are so great, dogs love them, and are so easy to acclimatise dogs to then why do you need to go to so much trouble introducing one to a puppy if you doubt you'll ever need to use one?

I'm not saying all puppies should be wearing them. To the contrary, all well-adjusted puppies should have the training to avoid wearing one. But the main point to be made is that dogs will adjust better to it as puppies than as adults facing something new, so if you are considering the use of one as an adult, it's a lot kinder to introduce it in a fun way as a pup than as an older dog.

Why is it more fun or kinder to introduce it to a puppy? Why would you buy a puppy and already be considering using a head collar on it as an adult dog?

I think we have gotten way off topic - but to get us back on track, here's an interesting take for all you peeps with Sch and drivey dogs from a police k-9 trainer: http://www.emainehosting.com/mesard/Articles/Not%20Using%20Force%20in%20Police%20Dog%20Training.htm

Needless to say, I don't agree with the author that non-drivey dogs need compulsion training (they do fine with positive training, but you do need to figure out what motivates them so that you can use it as a reinforcement), but I do think the rest of the article is pretty clearly favorable to the use of the Gottfried Dildei & Shirley Booth methods versus others for K-9 training.   Remember, we were supposed to be discussing use of a clicker versus being a clicker trainer;-)  Somehow we got off on an equipment tangent...

huski

If you get the training right as a pup there is no need for a head collar or prong or any tool like that later on.

I'll disagree here.  Most of my use for a prong is with Nikon in protection.  Protection is just not something you do with a puppy. 

Most of the things my dog is or will be trained to do were not possible as a puppy, either because of mental maturity or physical maturity.

Liesje

huski

If you get the training right as a pup there is no need for a head collar or prong or any tool like that later on.

 

I'll disagree here.  Most of my use for a prong is with Nikon in protection.  Protection is just not something you do with a puppy. 

Most of the things my dog is or will be trained to do were not possible as a puppy, either because of mental maturity or physical maturity.

Obviously there are exceptions, I just meant from a basic loose leash walking perspective. Training a working dog is going to be different as like you said, you can't use certain methods or tools with pups that you will have to use later down the track.

huski

But I strongly believe that using a head collar on a puppy, in order to teach loose leash walking is completely and utterly unecessary.

I agree with this statement too, considering that  I have never, ever said that I needed, or wanted, to use a head collar on a puppy to teach loose leash walking.  I think you have gotten yourself stuck where you believe that all a head collar is used for is pulling/LLW. Because I specifically said I would not use a head halter on a puppy for LLW...... which is why I also gave specific examples of how I would acclimate a puppy to it - specifically off-leash and having nothing to do with LLW.

huski

Why is it more fun or kinder to introduce it to a puppy?

Because puppies are a whole lot more malleable than adults. There is a reason it's called socialization - puppies are open to it and as long as you avoid the main fear period, the puppy will not mind it as much. It follows the same reason you teach a puppy to lay on its back, to have its nails done, to stand for grooming, to having its ears and mouth handled.

I don't buy a puppy with the thought that I'm going to kennel it forever. Or that I'm going to be muzzling it often. I don't buy a puppy with the thought that I'll need to put it in the position for xrays in a splay-legged position to get those patella or elbow shots. Nor do I buy a puppy with the consideration of using a head collar. What I do with puppies is prepare them to be stable, confident adults that can handle any of those possible stresses that may occur as an adult. And to do that, you start from puppyhood. There are a host of things you should do with puppies that most people do not do. Well, I'm not most people.

I see what happens to dogs who do not learn important life skills during puppyhood, and it's not pretty. Trying to re-teach a fully grown, yet immature Staffy that it's okay to have its nails clipped when it should have just learned as a puppy that it was no big deal....trying to comb an adult Shih Tzu mix that is terrified of the comb and sinks its teeth into your hand because you dared to comb it......heck, until you've seen an adult dog panic at the meer attachment of a normal leash (puppy mill dogs) and basically roll over, bite at the leash and fight for its life, you don't understand the importance of preparation. Of course the goal is not to have to use a head collar - but in my world, and in my experience, it's far better to be prepared than to have to "deal with it when the time comes". I hope to never have to muzzle my dogs for anything, either, but you bet I'd hope they'd tolerate it with little stress if the need ever arose.

If I had have introduced Gaci to a lot of these things almost six years ago, we probably wouldn't have the scenario we have now in "getting dressed". But she grew up in a home where she rarely had to wear a collar (multi-dog home where collar play was risky so the dogs did not wear collars in the house), with her own fenced backyard so no need for a lot of collar handling - that is my fault, and I take responsibility for that. But six years ago I wouldn't have realized the importance of doing all that handling and getting a dog "used to" even a normal collar. Since I started Shimmer from puppyhood to wear a Halti, she doesn't even blink when she puts it on, in fact she knows lots of fun things are going to happen when it comes out.

If we're going to talk about positive as a "philosophy" (which I don't really adhere to any camp at all), then it would be far more "positive" to prepare puppies early on for all of these things, as that way you are creating a dog that is ready to take on the world full force.

Back to topic now, though.

For what it's worth, I consider myself more a teacher that uses a clicker rather than a clicker trainer.

When I am using a clicker to teach new, specific, behaviours, I use "class-style" sessions where it's just the dog and I, in a non-distracting environment, and I adhere strongly to clicker trainer principles. In a training session, I don't use punishments of any sort, even if it's something I do not like, I'll just ignore it, as it will soon become extinct when the behaviour is developed. If for some reason I'm not getting what I want, I either need to stop the session for now and try again later, or back up in my training to something the dog can handle. I will not use any sort of "correction" to get the dog back on track when training new behaviours.

However, that said, in my day-to-day interactions with dogs, I may use negative punishment, rarely negative reinforcement (usually spatial pressure, that's about it), and the odd positive punishment (such as a "HEY!";). I also use a lot of management to prevent what I don't want to minimize the need for any of the above, and use reinforcement of known behaviours to prevent other unwanted behaviours before they occur. I try to set new, desirable habits either before unwanted ones occur, or shortly after they develop. A lot of what I do with my guys is basic habit setting, and we do have our daily routines, such as sit/stay before eating, waiting to go out of doors, putting collars on/taking collars off (morning/evening), waiting to get out of the car, waiting patiently for leashes to go on, etc.

Every day could be a different day with my guys. How we act around the house is different from a walk, is different from an agility trial. It is also dependent on the dog. I cannot use any sort of positive punishment - even a raised voice or assertive body language - with Shimmer. I can rough Gaci up in ways that would cause Shimmer to literally melt - what works really well for Gaci (and what gets her excited) would not at all work for Shimmer. Everything with Shimmer needs to be quiet, calm, and collect. Zipper is a middle of the road boy who is extremely stable all around, and for that reason is very amenable to learning what to do instead of what not to do.

Are they perfect? Well, they are living beings with thinking brains. They sometimes do things that go against what I want them to do, but that's okay with me because I know they aren't robots, and I'm sure I do things they don't like as well. The lifestyle I live with my guys doesn't require many aversives, and I live my life with my dogs to be as minimally aversive as possible, and always start with the least invasive methods to cause behaviour change (whether it be clicker training new, fun behaviours or changing unwanted behaviours). I judge my sucess with my dogs on what kind of life they are able to live and the quality of the life that they live.........mostly I judge based on our relationship away from any formal training exercises.  

Having a girl whose gone from OCD/dog-aggressive/neurotic-anxious to being able to calmly live with another female and share a bed, go to agility trials and train offleash with other dogs, to go on long hikes with other dogs in a pack of seven dogs, and another girl who no longer rolls over and practically urinates when faced with sudden stress or tries to escape, who now loves the very same person she bit as a young puppy, I feel pretty proud of what we've done such that I know that what I have been doing is working very well. Just last weekend my two "special needs" girls and Zipper had their photo taken with Santa - offleash and no special things required. Nobody even really believed that the two girls are actually not "social", because they behaved like little angels with beautiful manners. That is the only proof I need.

Kim_MacMillan

It follows the same reason you teach a puppy to lay on its back, to have its nails done, to stand for grooming, to having its ears and mouth handled.

Those things are important to teach a pup because they are things the puppy will have to learn to cope with for the rest of it's life. Training them to accept wearing a head collar is a moot point for me because not only will I never use one, I actively plan and train and raise my dogs so they don't need to wear one. Sure you may have something happen down the track or have something go awry with your training where you think a head collar is going to be appropriate but what if that happens two, four, six years down the track? Will the dog still be comfortable with the head collar after all that time? Will it still accept it so easily, assuming something has gone wrong for the dog to require it's use anyway? I just guess I am struggling to see the benefit in forcing a baby puppy to wear a training tool that can be quite aversive for no real reason.

I get where you are coming from re socialisation - I am well aware of the importance of socialisation and expose any pup I have to a huge range of different experiences. You can't however expose them to everything that they may encounter in their life time which is why we do so much work with them when they are in their critical period, not only so they are exposed to lots of different things, but so they learn how to cope when faced with a new experience :)

spiritdogs

I think we have gotten way off topic - but to get us back on track, here's an interesting take for all you peeps with Sch and drivey dogs from a police k-9 trainer:

Here is another person in Karen Pyror's stable that really gives the clicker a good go. Again he is a Police K9 person. He has a lot that is interesting to say about tracking and i use a lot of his  method tailored for the dogs i train. He trains with the clicker philosophy. Split rather than lumping.

This is how i like to see a dog trail...Note the body language, very relaxed. but as for speed i think my old Lab would have been a shade  quicker but unfortunately would have licked the perp. :)

http://www.i2ik9.com/Quasar_web_med.wmv

 I use the clicker heavily in tracking  for teaching some components.

Technically, i teach my dogs to actually close trail. There is a difference.

I use it particually now that the ants are everywhere here. If you put treats down, they get swarmed with ants in about 10 minutes.

Vocal markers in this environment are an absolute dead loss. If your dog is listening to you, then you rmotivation is all wrong.

I used to use tracking as a means of helping others xover to a more positive relationship with thier dogs, but there is nothing quite as distressing as watching a dog stressed by years of typical aversive abuse (use is abuse in my book) try to  work out what to do when a tough scenting problem happens. It always is heart breaking, it is always technically very hard to help the dog and handler through it, and now i just don't. If you think Aversives are all peaches and ice cream try some scenting excercises.:((

If you think Aversives are all peaches and ice cream try some scenting excercises.:((

Being new to scent work, I guess you might agree that's why Sioux, at age nine, and with no prior experience, had no trouble winning the first prize at the scent workshop - she's never been admonished for mistakes, just rewarded for problem solving:-)  I actually felt badly for some of the dogs who just sat there waiting to be told what to do...

I would love to do tracking with my beagle. Obviously, she has a pretty natural aptitude for putting her nose to the ground. We were walking home the other night and she started scenting madly, she practically pulled me across the road to follow a track she'd picked up, which is quite unusual as she's normally very well mannered - and we'd just been for a big walk and training session. She tracked the scent the entire way home. When I walked in the door, my mother told me when I was out with Daisy that she'd walked our Siberian around the neighbourhood. Daisy had 'tracked' his scent the entire way home :)

spiritdogs

I think we have gotten way off topic - but to get us back on track, here's an interesting take for all you peeps with Sch and drivey dogs from a police k-9 trainer: http://www.emainehosting.com/mesard/Articles/Not%20Using%20Force%20in%20Police%20Dog%20Training.htm

Needless to say, I don't agree with the author that non-drivey dogs need compulsion training (they do fine with positive training, but you do need to figure out what motivates them so that you can use it as a reinforcement), but I do think the rest of the article is pretty clearly favorable to the use of the Gottfried Dildei & Shirley Booth methods versus others for K-9 training.   Remember, we were supposed to be discussing use of a clicker versus being a clicker trainer;-)  Somehow we got off on an equipment tangent...

Besides being rather vague, it's not a bad article.  For the most part that is how I and everyone else I know in SchH trains.  I've yet to meet a SchH trainer/handler that hasn't used a clicker.  I know more SchH people who use clickers than in any other type of training I've tried.

Non-drivey dogs will need compulsion because they don't have the drive.  I don't agree with this which is why I'd never do this training with a dog that isn't genetically predisposed for it.  I guess for me the definition of a non-drivey dog is one that lacks motivation, so you aren't going to be able to find something that motivates it, at least not enough to bring out proper fighting drive.  It's just not a sport where you can shape it in ways that any dog can be able to succeed, even though many people treat it this way.  The point is to weed out dogs.  Unfortunately, no system of evaluation is perfect, and a really good compulsive trainer can ofter make a crappy dog look better than a novice trainer with a decent dog using more appropriate methods.

huski

I would love to do tracking with my beagle. Obviously, she has a pretty natural aptitude for putting her nose to the ground. We were walking home the other night and she started scenting madly, she practically pulled me across the road to follow a track she'd picked up, which is quite unusual as she's normally very well mannered -

Beagles are one of the best tracking dogs and easiest to teach almost bar none for ANKC. A good place to start is with Steve White's DVDs  which are available from Tawzer. One hidden benefit of tracking is that you get to cue that scenting behaviour and they usually love it so much that you can use it as a motivator for obedience training.

Steve White can talk, and talk and talk and talk ... so you need a fast forward. You will have to move quite quickly with your Beagle so that they don't get stuck.

Steve's methods are quite different to anyone elses. If you are a newbie, i would get a bit vague when asked how you train your dog. 

There are a couple of Beagle trackers down here including an AQIS handler who sometimes tracks her retired dog.  There is another breeder who i wish would title her dogs...

 Beagles along with Labs can share a common behaviour problem which is that they can decide to go hunting all on there onesome on a track. They usually leave this for a trial .:) There are simple effective ways to deal with this.

poodleOwned

Beagles are one of the best tracking dogs and easiest to teach almost bar none for ANKC. A good place to start is with Steve White's DVDs  which are available from Tawzer. One hidden benefit of tracking is that you get to cue that scenting behaviour and they usually love it so much that you can use it as a motivator for obedience training.

Steve White can talk, and talk and talk and talk ... so you need a fast forward. You will have to move quite quickly with your Beagle so that they don't get stuck.

Steve's methods are quite different to anyone elses. If you are a newbie, i would get a bit vague when asked how you train your dog. 

There are a couple of Beagle trackers down here including an AQIS handler who sometimes tracks her retired dog.  There is another breeder who i wish would title her dogs...

 Beagles along with Labs can share a common behaviour problem which is that they can decide to go hunting all on there onesome on a track. They usually leave this for a trial .:) There are simple effective ways to deal with this.

 

Thanks for the info PO. A trainer friend of mine here in Brisbane does tracking and has been telling me for ages to get into it with Daisy but we've been focusing on obedience instead. I'd like to knock off her CCD and CD title this year so depending on how busy we are, I am definitely keen to get her into tracking.

 Coming late to the discussion, I think this notion of clicker training versus training with a clicker is really important. I started out as a training-with-a-clicker person when I crossed over and it worked quite nicely. Then I learnt what happens when you do real clicker training and was stunned, really. What I'd done with Kivi when I didn't know what I was doing was way more effective than the correctional methods I'd done with Penny. But when I took that extra step I finally realised what everyone was raving about. Kivi is the first dog I have known personally that comes and glues himself in front of me when he thinks we're training and won't shift until I put everything away and tell him to go away. It seems like a small thing, but until then, my experience had been that you have to have a dog on leash to train them and use a lot of repetition. I love the light in my dogs' eyes when I train with them, but even more I love the way that they see it as a game. A puzzle that is thoroughly solvable. Looking at it in detail has opened my eyes to just how clever and subtle you can be with rewards-based training. It's a whole new level of complexity to me, and makes training a lot more fun for both me and my dogs.

Incidentally, Erik used to play the "I'm gonna BITE you!" game and you just can't ignore a bruising bite to your calf. I found a rock solid sit helped immensely. I'd see him coming and go "Erik, sit!" and he'd forget about biting and sit down. You had about five seconds to think of something to do before he'd decide to try biting again. These days, downs are second nature to him and I love them even more. Last time he tried chomping on me he did a down on command and then heeled on command with me until I found a toy and threw it for him. Reward histories are truly beautiful and in my experience so far, can solve just about any problem. The more you look at how you can reward rather than what you should punish, the more pro-active a trainer you become, and the happier you and your dog are.

I use a clicker for Erik and a verbal marker for Kivi, mostly because Kivi is easily confused. I use them to teach new behaviours, and there's nothing I've tried that's more fun or rewarding. I've recently read Kayce Cover's SATS training manual and found it to be deeply unsatisfying. Sure, no doubt telling your animal exactly where to put each paw, hip, shoulder and every other body part is an incredibly fast and stress-free way to teach an animal something new, but you don't get to see your animal figuring out the game for themselves. I'm going to move Kivi onto targeting because he just doesn't like free-shaping much, but I will always free-shape Erik, I think. Erik LOVES it and there's nothing that beats having your animal diving into every new activity with enthusiasm. Every time Erik learns something new it becomes his favourite trick. It's just so much fun!