Positive Training as a Philosophy - Clicker Trainer vs. Training With a Clicker

spiritdogs

Specifically how did you teach loose leash walking, and what, if anything, would you do differently with a dog that has very low pack drive, the ones that humans traditionally label as independent, aloof, or difficult to train?  (Some would say Huskies fit into that category, but we all know that breed predispositions do not always attend to each individual dog.)

It's not something that can be explained quickly, but suffice to say, I've seen dozens of dogs trained with the same method and each one has been walking on a loose leash within 10 minutes. Of course, whether or not the owner continues to get success depends on if they keep up the training. IMO, if the trainer is good, it's not something that should be difficult to do.

Pack drive is only one component, there are other aspects too. IMO every dog has pack drive to some degree, my Siberian included. He'd been a puller for four years before my trainer showed me how to get him walking on a loose leash :) And no, we didn't use anything more than a martingale collar and as I mentioned before I use them because he has a narrow head and can slip any flat collar.

I somewhat agree with Huski's points here. I am all about training being easy for the dog's owner, regardless of the method. I want stuff to be easy to understand, easy to implement and use, and easy to get results with. Which is one reason I am such a huge fan of clicker training - I have personally found it easy for most people to use and do, and a much larger percentage of people (IME) have been able to properly use clicker training or other positive methods than they can use corrections.

I do not consider head halters 'easy' to use. Having to properly acclimate a dog with desensitization is not necessarily easy, especially for a new-time dog owner. There are a lot of things to be aware of, cautious of, and to think about, when a dog is on a head halter (making sure the dog isn't lunging, hurting his neck, isn't getting corrected, etc.), and I've seen it be pretty difficult to properly do AND then on top of it, remember to click-treat for things done right.

For an experienced dog owner/handler/trainer, doing all those things at once might come with ease. But it doesn't for most people.

FWIW, I have mentioned before that I'm not a fan of "tools" in general - head halters included. 

But for me, they have had, and continue to have, an important place in certain aspects of my dogs' lives. When you walk three dogs at once, and one has battled dog-aggression issues, and another who panics when forced to make her own decisions with certain people and things in her environment, they have been a godsend. And I'll be 100% honest when I say there are certain scenarios in which my dogs will always wear a head halter. It is for safety measures rather than convenience. We've done years of behavioural mod with both females, but I believe that much like an alcoholic is always an alcoholic, a dog with dog aggression always has that potential for dog aggression - especially when you can't control the entire environment all the time. I use the head halter maybe once every month or two, but it's always kept close at hand for when those situations may arise.

It's easy to talk badly about any tool....and everyone will have an opinon. At one time I thought that prong collars were the devil's necklace.....but I have come to change my mind. I still don't like them, but I can see where they may be a valid tool in certain situations (and one condition is that I can only see them used on very large dogs....like, over 80 lb dogs, and they would be used as a last resort). I've used lots of head halters on different dogs (mostly through the shelter), and I see very few dogs who suffer negatively from them.

It's really easy to sit back and say "I'd never use anything aversive on my dogs". If that was the case, Gaci would never be allowed to leave the house, because she gets anxious in putting on any equipment. She finds getting dressed at all aversive. Thankfully, she gets over it in a few seconds and forgets all about it, so we don't make a big deal about it and I don't spend a lot of time training a different response, we just get it over and done with quickly. No fuss, no muss, on to better things. I've seen dogs who, wearing regular buckle collars for the first time as an adult, throw bigger hissy fits than most who wear a head halter for the first time. Part of it is exposure as a puppy - most dogs exposed to head halters (not for training, but for socialization) as puppies have no problems with them as adults, and reactions are minimal. Adult dogs wearing any equipment for the first time can, and have, had bad reactions.

There's no one-size fits all to working with dogs. In reality, it's why there are so many options - to make things easier for dog and owner to live peacefully together and with as little stress as possible.

spiritdogs

Specifically how did you teach loose leash walking, and what, if anything, would you do differently with a dog that has very low pack drive, the ones that humans traditionally label as independent, aloof, or difficult to train?  (Some would say Huskies fit into that category, but we all know that breed predispositions do not always attend to each individual dog.)

I've never used anything other than her regular harness.  But, when she was first learning if she pulled, I'd stop.  When she turned around and looked at me like, WTF??  then I told her "easy" or "slowly" and we proceeded again.  It didn't take long for her to figure it out.  Now, if she's pulling for some reason, I do the same thing.  But, over the years I've also noticed that if I just click the "brake" of her retractable leash, so it makes a clicking sound, she will slow down.  I never specifically did clicker training with her so not sure why she responds to that noise. 

Kim, I agree that prongs are very often (probably more than not!) improperly fitted, maybe moreso than head halters just by virtue of being more widely used.  Even among people using them in specific contexts as a training tool (not just something for controlling the dog on a walk) I seem them fitted wrong.  I guess I'm less concerned about it than an incorrectly fitted/used head halter b/c I have *never* seen anyone fit a prong too tight.  If they are fit wrong, the prongs are too large and/or the entire collar is too large and too far down the neck.  All of these scenarios result in the prong collar having much less effect on the dog.  The danger with an improperly fitted prong collar is that it will break apart easier, or it simply doesn't work. 

tenna

I do not consider head halters 'easy' to use. Having to properly acclimate a dog with desensitization is not necessarily easy, especially for a new-time dog owner. There are a lot of things to be aware of, cautious of, and to think about, when a dog is on a head halter (making sure the dog isn't lunging, hurting his neck, isn't getting corrected, etc.), and I've seen it be pretty difficult to properly do AND then on top of it, remember to click-treat for things done right.

I agree, not easy at all even if you get a dog that doesn't give a rat's butt about it being put right on with no desensitization.  They are not easy for me, and I do some serious bitework with a dog who wears a harness, two collars, two long lines, and one grab tab all at once and can line-handle my dog without distracting him from his work or giving him bad bites.

tenna

I do not consider head halters 'easy' to use. Having to properly acclimate a dog with desensitization is not necessarily easy, especially for a new-time dog owner. There are a lot of things to be aware of, cautious of, and to think about, when a dog is on a head halter (making sure the dog isn't lunging, hurting his neck, isn't getting corrected, etc.), and I've seen it be pretty difficult to properly do AND then on top of it, remember to click-treat for things done right.

Kim_MacMillan

FWIW, I have mentioned before that I'm not a fan of "tools" in general - head halters included. 

But for me, they have had, and continue to have, an important place in certain aspects of my dogs' lives. When you walk three dogs at once, and one has battled dog-aggression issues, and another who panics when forced to make her own decisions with certain people and things in her environment, they have been a godsend. And I'll be 100% honest when I say there are certain scenarios in which my dogs will always wear a head halter. It is for safety measures rather than convenience. We've done years of behavioural mod with both females, but I believe that much like an alcoholic is always an alcoholic, a dog with dog aggression always has that potential for dog aggression - especially when you can't control the entire environment all the time. I use the head halter maybe once every month or two, but it's always kept close at hand for when those situations may arise.

It's easy to talk badly about any tool....and everyone will have an opinon. At one time I thought that prong collars were the devil's necklace.....but I have come to change my mind. I still don't like them, but I can see where they may be a valid tool in certain situations (and one condition is that I can only see them used on very large dogs....like, over 80 lb dogs, and they would be used as a last resort). I've used lots of head halters on different dogs (mostly through the shelter), and I see very few dogs who suffer negatively from them.

It's really easy to sit back and say "I'd never use anything aversive on my dogs". If that was the case, Gaci would never be allowed to leave the house, because she gets anxious in putting on any equipment. She finds getting dressed at all aversive. Thankfully, she gets over it in a few seconds and forgets all about it, so we don't make a big deal about it and I don't spend a lot of time training a different response, we just get it over and done with quickly. No fuss, no muss, on to better things. I've seen dogs who, wearing regular buckle collars for the first time as an adult, throw bigger hissy fits than most who wear a head halter for the first time. Part of it is exposure as a puppy - most dogs exposed to head halters (not for training, but for socialization) as puppies have no problems with them as adults, and reactions are minimal. Adult dogs wearing any equipment for the first time can, and have, had bad reactions.

There's no one-size fits all to working with dogs. In reality, it's why there are so many options - to make things easier for dog and owner to live peacefully together and with as little stress as possible.

 

I agree with you and like I've said a few times I can see there are instances where head collars can work well. Although I've seen head collars make DA dogs worse, because when they lunge or go to display aggression they fight with the head collar and there is a risk of injury and increased anxiety. It was only in a recent thread that someone was emphasising the importance of never using aversives or corrections with DA dogs - head collars are corrective. I was jumped on by a few people in the other thread because I'm not entirely against using aversives, corrections or punishment yet many of the people who jumped on me are happy to utilise head collars (not talking to you, specifically Kim, just in general).

Although I would never put a head collar on a puppy. IMO, all you should ever be walking a pup on is a flat collar and leash (or harness, in some instances). There are so called positive training classes here who will slap head collars on very young puppies - what on earth for, I always wonder. If the trainers had a clue what they were doing they'd know a head collar on a pup is completely and utterly unnecessary, just like a check chain or prong is.

The point of putting head collars on a puppy is not to use them for teaching - it is for socialization so that if you need it later, you have it at your disposal. It's because it's easier to teach a pup to accept it as a youngster, then it is to teach an adult to accept it. It's not that you need it, but it saves time later if you ever need it. Any pup I get I will teach to accept a head halter, even if we never end up needing it. It's no different for me than teaching a dog to accept a muzzle just in case, or kennel-training a dog even though you'll never put your dog in a kennel (if you choose to do so). Preventative measures are better than trying to fix things later on.

I have never seen a head halter make any DA issues worse in my experience yet, and it certainly isn't the case with my dogs either. When they are wearing halters they know they are "on the job", and they aren't on a regular LLW exercises.

I'll be the first to admit there are definite risks with head halters, but for me and the needs I have they are the tool that works best for us. They work in ways that others will not. Zipper, my boy, has only ever worn a martingale collar - he's never worn anything else, all dogs are treated individually as to their own needs.

Kim_MacMillan

The point of putting head collars on a puppy is not to use them for teaching - it is for socialization so that if you need it later, you have it at your disposal. It's because it's easier to teach a pup to accept it as a youngster, then it is to teach an adult to accept it. It's not that you need it, but it saves time later if you ever need it. Any pup I get I will teach to accept a head halter, even if we never end up needing it. It's no different for me than teaching a dog to accept a muzzle just in case, or kennel-training a dog even though you'll never put your dog in a kennel (if you choose to do so). Preventative measures are better than trying to fix things later on.

Would you put a prong collar on a puppy? Or a check chain? Just in case you ever need it later on?

If you get the training right as a pup there is no need for a head collar or prong or any tool like that later on. 

I can see your reasoning but having seen trainers whack them on baby puppies because they pull on the lead (hello, they've never been  taught to walk on a leash, of course they are going to pull!) it's something I feel very strongly about, I don't think it's appropriate to put a tool like a head collar on a baby puppy. I'd rather spend my time training them so they never need one.

I have never seen a head halter make any DA issues worse in my experience yet, and it certainly isn't the case with my dogs either. When they are wearing halters they know they are "on the job", and they aren't on a regular LLW exercises.

I'll be the first to admit there are definite risks with head halters, but for me and the needs I have they are the tool that works best for us. They work in ways that others will not. Zipper, my boy, has only ever worn a martingale collar - he's never worn anything else, all dogs are treated individually as to their own needs.

I think it's great they work well for your dogs, we should all use the tool that works best for the dog we are using it for :D

Kim_MacMillan

The point of putting head collars on a puppy is not to use them for teaching - it is for socialization so that if you need it later, you have it at your disposal. It's because it's easier to teach a pup to accept it as a youngster, then it is to teach an adult to accept it. It's not that you need it, but it saves time later if you ever need it. Any pup I get I will teach to accept a head halter, even if we never end up needing it. It's no different for me than teaching a dog to accept a muzzle just in case, or kennel-training a dog even though you'll never put your dog in a kennel (if you choose to do so). Preventative measures are better than trying to fix things later on.

I have never seen a head halter make any DA issues worse in my experience yet, and it certainly isn't the case with my dogs either. When they are wearing halters they know they are "on the job", and they aren't on a regular LLW exercises.

I'll be the first to admit there are definite risks with head halters, but for me and the needs I have they are the tool that works best for us. They work in ways that others will not. Zipper, my boy, has only ever worn a martingale collar - he's never worn anything else, all dogs are treated individually as to their own needs.

Agreed.  The halti has not made Sally's issues worse.  If anything it makes things easier because if we get into a situation where she is reacting to a dog I have control over her head and therefore can do "damage control" much more easily and efficiently.  I've seen her react on a flat collar, a martingale, a prong, an Easy Walk, and a head halter and I really don't think the head halter's effectiveness has anything to do with it being aversive.  The first trainer I took her to had me use a prong on her and I literally corrected her so hard (as per instructions) that she yelped (this is not a pain sensitive dog)and she still reacted right after the correction.  If you let her just stay there and react on a martingale she will stand there and choke and hack and still continue to react.  When you have a pain insensitive reactive dog in full "crazy dog" mode it is going to take a lot of pain to actually break through that and bring them down to earth, and since reacting tends to be a self-rewarding behavior it is going to take a lot of pain to make the reaction not worth it to the dog. 

With the head halter it is less about aversiveness, IMHO, than it is about control.  A reactive dog in full reaction mode is out of control and is not in the state of mind to really be learning anything.  First it is about damage control, and it is a lot harder to focus on what you are reacting to when you are not in full control of your head.  With horses the concept is "control the head, control the horse"--I have kept horses from running off on me, rolling on me, etc simply by having control of that head, and I can help bring Sally back down to earth via the same concept.

You would not need to put a prong or a choke chain on a puppy because they "wear" like a regular collar. If a puppy has worn a normal collar then it wouldn't have an adjustment period.

But wearing something over the bridge of the nose is a socialization factor, not a training factor. I don't think there is any harm in putting a head halter on a puppy before a meal and taking it off after, or putting it on (with no leash attached) during a three minute training session. Like I said, it's not about training, it's about having the pup learn to accepts it lest it ever be needed.

You don't know what may crop up as a dog grows up, that goes beyond "simple" training like LLW. And not all dogs are at all easy to teach to walk nicely on a leash - just as there is no one-tool-fits-all, there is most certainly no one-LLW-method for all dogs. Different breed groups, and different personalities, work better using different techniques. It's nice to have it as an option if the need ever arose, than to shoot yourself in the foot if you do need it someday and you never taught your dog to accept it.

I'm not saying all puppies should be wearing them. To the contrary, all well-adjusted puppies should have the training to avoid wearing one. But the main point to be made is that dogs will adjust better to it as puppies than as adults facing something new, so if you are considering the use of one as an adult, it's a lot kinder to introduce it in a fun way as a pup than as an older dog.

huski

If you get the training right as a pup there is no need for a head collar or prong or any tool like that later on. 

That's not always the case.  Jack did NOT pull on the leash at all as a pup and was properly leash trained.  Then he had health problems.  He started limping and it took months of crate rest and different vets to find out that he had elbow dysplasia and needed surgery.  After the surgery he had to be on more crate rest with a few five minute breaks a day on leash to go potty.  YOU try to convince a 10 month old lab cooped up in a crate the majority of the time that he shouldn't get excited and pull.  Once he got into the habit, it was all over. 

Probably if he had not had any health issues he would have been in a flat collar the whole time, you can't always predict these things though.

spiritdogs

huski

I should add, it is always my goal not to have to utilise any training tool. A dog that pulls on the leash is a reflection on the dog's relationship with the handler, that's not something a tool can fix or change - it just gives you a bit of leverage.

I know trainers who have both prongs and head collars in their tool box, what they choose to use depends on what will work best for the dog.

I would question any trainer who persevered with a tool, irregardless of what tool it was, if it was creating a highly aversive and stressed reaction in the dog. I'm sure head collars can work with some dogs, but I think it's a bit silly to assume that they are a strictly positive option and not aversive in anyway. They wouldn't work if they weren't aversive.

 

IMO, a GL, properly used, is a lot less aversive than a prong to most dogs. 

 That isn't at all what I have seen over the years.

sillysally

The first trainer I took her to had me use a prong on her and I literally corrected her so hard (as per instructions) that she yelped (this is not a pain sensitive dog)and she still reacted right after the correction.

That is so far from the proper way to use a prong collar it's disturbing. Not your fault if that's how you were instructed but it's definitely not how one should ever be used.

With the head halter it is less about aversiveness, IMHO, than it is about control.  A reactive dog in full reaction mode is out of control and is not in the state of mind to really be learning anything.  First it is about damage control, and it is a lot harder to focus on what you are reacting to when you are not in full control of your head.  With horses the concept is "control the head, control the horse"--I have kept horses from running off on me, rolling on me, etc simply by having control of that head, and I can help bring Sally back down to earth via the same concept.

The skeletal structure of horse is so completely and utterly different to that of a dog I fail to see how the two can be compared.