Positive Training as a Philosophy - Clicker Trainer vs. Training With a Clicker

huski

I should add, it is always my goal not to have to utilise any training tool. A dog that pulls on the leash is a reflection on the dog's relationship with the handler, that's not something a tool can fix or change - it just gives you a bit of leverage.

I know trainers who have both prongs and head collars in their tool box, what they choose to use depends on what will work best for the dog.

I would question any trainer who persevered with a tool, irregardless of what tool it was, if it was creating a highly aversive and stressed reaction in the dog. I'm sure head collars can work with some dogs, but I think it's a bit silly to assume that they are a strictly positive option and not aversive in anyway. They wouldn't work if they weren't aversive.

IMO, a GL, properly used, is a lot less aversive than a prong to most dogs.  I don't recall ever saying, however, that they are a "strictly positive option." They are a legitimate tool that can reduce stress in many dogs, despite your reluctance to believe that - and I am certainly not a trainer who would persevere with any tool that creates a highly aversive and stressed reaction in a dog.  The object of positive training and behavior modification is to avoid aversives as much as possible, and reduce stress, while increasing confidence and encouraging good behavior.  By the way, for you and me the goal is not to have to use devices - however, for many pet owners, the goal is just to be able to walk a dog safely, or to do so without getting your arm torn out of the socket.  Many of them don't really care to put in a lot of time training their dogs to walk nicely on lead, they just want a quick fix.  If I'm seeing that, then mostly I'm telling them to use a no pull harness, for the reasons mentioned - easy to use without acclimation, and easy to fit.

spiritdogs

IMO, a GL, properly used, is a lot less aversive than a prong to most dogs.  I don't recall ever saying, however, that they are a "strictly positive option." They are a legitimate tool that can reduce stress in many dogs, despite your reluctance to believe that - and I am certainly not a trainer who would persevere with any tool that creates a highly aversive and stressed reaction in a dog.  The object of positive training and behavior modification is to avoid aversives as much as possible, and reduce stress, while increasing confidence and encouraging good behavior.  By the way, for you and me the goal is not to have to use devices - however, for many pet owners, the goal is just to be able to walk a dog safely, or to do so without getting your arm torn out of the socket.  Many of them don't really care to put in a lot of time training their dogs to walk nicely on lead, they just want a quick fix.  If I'm seeing that, then mostly I'm telling them to use a no pull harness, for the reasons mentioned - easy to use without acclimation, and easy to fit.

I wasn't trying to imply that you do think they are a positive option or that you would persevere with them if a dog found them highly aversive - I was talking generally. Like Liesje said, I don't favour any tool that can take weeks for my dog to stop fighting it and to desensitize to it (if ever). The only tool I've ever seen dogs react so strongly to (rolling on the ground trying to get it off, scratching at their faces, fighting it the entire time it's on, refusing to walk on it and completely shutting down) has been a head collar. I've never seen a dog react that way to having a prong or martingale or no pull harness put on for the first time.

I know that head collars can work well on some dogs but I have seen many for whom they don't. And sure, a lot of the time they are Joe Blows who have gone to the pet store, bought a head collar and whacked it on their dog without any consideration to using it properly, but I've also seen them fail to work even when they are used properly. Some dogs just don't like them. I've seen far more dogs stressed out on head collars than I have seen on prongs, but then again, I've only ever seen prongs used appropriately and properly. I see head collars misused all the time.

ETA: I agree that some of the general public want a quick fix. But that doesn't mean that it's ok for them to misuse a tool in order to see that quick fix. Dogs can learn to pull on prongs, head collars etc - it's in the training not the tool.

JackieG

What were the circumstances that preceeded this behavior?  What's the relationship between handler and dog?   You make it sound as though the dogs, for no apparent reason, decided to bite the handler.

  Well, that's the tough part, because two of the dogs in question were being handled by either novice or softer experienced handlers at the time of the incidents.  They would say "nothing happened", but we all know there is ALWAYS a cause for any action.  It could have been anything and Anne's mention of them "stopping the movement" could be exactly the trigger.  It could have been nearby farm animals, it could have been simply the excitement of being out for a walk/stimulation of the environment re-directed, which was believed to be the case in two of the dogs. 

JackieG

How was it dealt with and what was the result?  Short term and long term?

Short and long term, the dogs were no longer allowed to be handled by novice or indecisive handlers, because they were easy targets, and the more experienced trainers were able to catch the dog before the strike happened.  (Although the third dog was the one who struck an experienced handler, in an incident after he struck the novice, and they hadn't yet identified the trigger.)  It was almost like two of the dogs thought it was funny to hear the person squeal.  It really seems like they were just redirecting excitement, def not fear.  They were forward dogs.  They were enrolled in training programs and one went on to become a demo dog for a trainer down in FL.  ie, given the job Anne mentioned.  He later died from cancer.  I really don't know the long term for the other two.

Thanks very much for your answer on how to handle such a dog, Anne.  I liked a lot of the suggestions, although the head halter would not come into play, but there was plenty of other things I could see being implemented (at least 3 or 4 of which I can say were used in the case of these dogs.)  So, what I really meant by asking was, what do you do in that instance when something has triggered a dog to redirect its energy into a dangerous behavior?  Once you've identified the trigger (and therefore how to avoid or work with it later), do you just put the dog away?

huski

A dog that pulls on the leash is a reflection on the dog's relationship with the handler, that's not something a tool can fix or change - it just gives you a bit of leverage.

HI

That is one option and is a common one  combined with a lot of dominance talk in dog training. There are several other options that it might be

The very first option is lack of training and a strong opposition reflex that many dogs have. They get pulled, they automatically pull back. so the human pulls harder and it spirals out of control....

 The second option is that we may well be developing that opposition reflex and the dogs are small enough that we don't care

 The third one is that there is nothing in it for the dog not to pull and to work well after traiing

 The  fourth option is that it is a mini poodle with a pink collar on, and ribbons in her ears walking towards the ring. I am either taking the mickey, or trying to get sympathy from the judge which never works. It would be nice though if they said hello to me before they said hello to her...

I agree there are instances where dogs pulling on the leash is necessary or useful (I own a Siberian after all, we train them to pull in harness :D) like in the show ring or tracking or with some working breeds.

Generally though, dogs pull on the leash because we teach them to and let them learn that's the way to get where they want to go. I've never seen a dog who pulls on the leash (as a behavourial problem, not as a working dog etc) have any or much regard for their handler (when out walking). Each of these dogs had a pretty low value for their owner when out for a walk. When I taught my two to walk on a loose leash a large part of it was playing to their pack drive.

huski

Generally though, dogs pull on the leash because we teach them to and let them learn that's the way to get where they want to go. I've never seen a dog who pulls on the leash (as a behavourial problem, not as a working dog etc) have any or much regard for their handler (when out walking). Each of these dogs had a pretty low value for their owner when out for a walk.

One of the valuable things that a behavourist approach (learning theory approach ) has given me is seeing a behaviour as just a behaviour. The good people that i have gotten to work with in the past are doing great things, they need to change a behaviour and are getting help to do it primairily so that there dog may have quality of life and doesn't spend the rest of it's life in the backyard. I have never seen a situation where telling them that their relationship is wrong or that the dog has no regard for them do anything useful other than make them feel guilty a bit useless and sometimes panic.

Often regard comes with training, a bit of understanding of what is reinforcement and how behaviours can be strengthened and stopped. There is usually a lot of unitentional reinforcement going on. A common one is that many don't know that it is entirely unneccesary for a dog's developement and character for it to sniff the next dog's bum in a heeling circle. There are many ways to stop this, and Aversives aren't neccessary. I like using C+T for this stuff.

Value is a funny word in dog training, a bit like the word tool . A lo of people use both and i can understand that . I would prefer instruement instead of tool personally becuase it reminds us that dogs are living sentinent beings not cars or computers. The word tool can give the wrong ethical  understanding.

Value as far as reinforcement goes is based on past history. Many of the dogs that we see have owners that they see as a source of frustration, neither good nor bad because of skill deficits just nagging barriers to any source of joy or fun which they manage to bypass at regular intervals.

Value has many more meanings in the dog world though.. there is new understanding every day.

poodleOwned

I have never seen a situation where telling them that their relationship is wrong or that the dog has no regard for them do anything useful other than make them feel guilty a bit useless and sometimes panic.

Oh, if talking to someone in real life I'd never say anything like that to them - I agree it's not always constructive. 

I just think it's important to build on the dog/handler relationship in any training we do especially when working with behaviourial problems. 

huski

spiritdogs

IMO, a GL, properly used, is a lot less aversive than a prong to most dogs.  I don't recall ever saying, however, that they are a "strictly positive option." They are a legitimate tool that can reduce stress in many dogs, despite your reluctance to believe that - and I am certainly not a trainer who would persevere with any tool that creates a highly aversive and stressed reaction in a dog.  The object of positive training and behavior modification is to avoid aversives as much as possible, and reduce stress, while increasing confidence and encouraging good behavior.  By the way, for you and me the goal is not to have to use devices - however, for many pet owners, the goal is just to be able to walk a dog safely, or to do so without getting your arm torn out of the socket.  Many of them don't really care to put in a lot of time training their dogs to walk nicely on lead, they just want a quick fix.  If I'm seeing that, then mostly I'm telling them to use a no pull harness, for the reasons mentioned - easy to use without acclimation, and easy to fit.

 

I wasn't trying to imply that you do think they are a positive option or that you would persevere with them if a dog found them highly aversive - I was talking generally. Like Liesje said, I don't favour any tool that can take weeks for my dog to stop fighting it and to desensitize to it (if ever). The only tool I've ever seen dogs react so strongly to (rolling on the ground trying to get it off, scratching at their faces, fighting it the entire time it's on, refusing to walk on it and completely shutting down) has been a head collar. I've never seen a dog react that way to having a prong or martingale or no pull harness put on for the first time.

I know that head collars can work well on some dogs but I have seen many for whom they don't. And sure, a lot of the time they are Joe Blows who have gone to the pet store, bought a head collar and whacked it on their dog without any consideration to using it properly, but I've also seen them fail to work even when they are used properly. Some dogs just don't like them. I've seen far more dogs stressed out on head collars than I have seen on prongs, but then again, I've only ever seen prongs used appropriately and properly. I see head collars misused all the time.

 

ETA: I agree that some of the general public want a quick fix. But that doesn't mean that it's ok for them to misuse a tool in order to see that quick fix. Dogs can learn to pull on prongs, head collars etc - it's in the training not the tool.

Why do you refuse to understand that it doesn't take *weeks* to acclimate a dog to a GL???   Also, the dogs you have seen rolling on the ground have very likely *not* had the acclimation done properly, as the number of dogs that would truly never accept it is probably very small - after all, dogs get used to all kinds of other things without fuss - nail trimming, force dryers, wobble boards, agility chutes, etc., even though there are some dogs that never do, the number is equally very small.  The public are not the only ones who want a quick fix - which is certainly evidenced by the number of people here who continue to use prongs, chokes and e-collars to accomplish their goals.  The coin flips both ways.

huski

I agree there are instances where dogs pulling on the leash is necessary or useful (I own a Siberian after all, we train them to pull in harness :D) like in the show ring or tracking or with some working breeds.

Generally though, dogs pull on the leash because we teach them to and let them learn that's the way to get where they want to go. I've never seen a dog who pulls on the leash (as a behavourial problem, not as a working dog etc) have any or much regard for their handler (when out walking). Each of these dogs had a pretty low value for their owner when out for a walk. When I taught my two to walk on a loose leash a large part of it was playing to their pack drive.

Specifically how did you teach loose leash walking, and what, if anything, would you do differently with a dog that has very low pack drive, the ones that humans traditionally label as independent, aloof, or difficult to train?  (Some would say Huskies fit into that category, but we all know that breed predispositions do not always attend to each individual dog.)

 It did not take weeks to get Sally used to the head halter.  She acclimated to it fairly quickly, to the point that one of our trainers that disliked head halters was impressed with how well she did on them--there is no change in her attitude when it goes on (unless you count excitement--she gets very excited about it).  I have used a prong collar but she does not have the proper temperament for a prong IMHO, plus the smallest correction on one has her performing all kinds of calming signals.  She pulls harder on the martingale then she does on anything else and she learned to ignore the EW completely within a week. 

 Jack, on the other hand detests head halters.  He was started with one in puppy class and has just never liked it.  He would be annoyed while he was walking and then throw himself dramatically onto the ground and try to claw it off his face.  We then tried the Easy Walk, which not only did he also dislike but made me nervous due to the proximity to his elbow.  So I tried a prong as a last resort, and he did great on it.  He was happy and relaxed, etc.  We've now gotten him to the point where we rarely have to use it. 

It just goes to show how different dogs are in regards to "aversive."

I personally think that I have become a more positive trainer, simply because that's what seems to work for my pups.  Sally's biggest issue is her reactivness to dogs, and having been there done that I can tell you that correcting her only makes the issue worse.  Correcting Jack when it comes to stealing food is a joke because the possibility of getting food is more of a reward than any punishment could be aversive.  Correcting him when it comes to teaching obedience stuff just makes him less interested in what you are doing.  He is motivated by fun, and if something isn't fun, he just doesn't see any good reason to continue doing it.  

sillysally

 It did not take weeks to get Sally used to the head halter.  She acclimated to it fairly quickly, to the point that one of our trainers that disliked head halters was impressed with how well she did on them--there is no change in her attitude when it goes on (unless you count excitement--she gets very excited about it).  I have used a prong collar but she does not have the proper temperament for a prong IMHO, plus the smallest correction on one has her performing all kinds of calming signals.  She pulls harder on the martingale then she does on anything else and she learned to ignore the EW completely within a week. 

 Jack, on the other hand detests head halters.  He was started with one in puppy class and has just never liked it.  He would be annoyed while he was walking and then throw himself dramatically onto the ground and try to claw it off his face.  We then tried the Easy Walk, which not only did he also dislike but made me nervous due to the proximity to his elbow.  So I tried a prong as a last resort, and he did great on it.  He was happy and relaxed, etc.  We've now gotten him to the point where we rarely have to use it. 

It just goes to show how different dogs are in regards to "aversive."

I personally think that I have become a more positive trainer, simply because that's what seems to work for my pups.  Sally's biggest issue is her reactivness to dogs, and having been there done that I can tell you that correcting her only makes the issue worse.  Correcting Jack when it comes to stealing food is a joke because the possibility of getting food is more of a reward than any punishment could be aversive.  Correcting him when it comes to teaching obedience stuff just makes him less interested in what you are doing.  He is motivated by fun, and if something isn't fun, he just doesn't see any good reason to continue doing it.  

The one important thing I note in your post is the reference to what motivates your dogs.  Every dog teaches us something, whether it's how to better utilize a piece of equipment, how to be proactive instead of reactive when training (the old management & prevention thing), or how to motivate.  The fact that your dog is motivated by fun is terrific!  But, the fact that you recognized it and use it to your advantage is huge.  Some people just don't think fun has any place in training.  They're so freakin' serious about it all - imagine what that would do for a dog like Jack!  Dogs work for the things they want, and our job is to figure out what that is.  So, if your dog steals food, imagine if you teach "leave it" the way I do with my food motivated dogs.  They get food for leaving food alone - and the food they get is always better than the food they leave - what a concept;-)

I might have made in incremental step before going to the prong, though.  For example, there are no pull harnesses by other manufacturers that do not fit as close to the elbow as the EW.  Sporn makes one that I used a lot before the EW's came out, and Halti has one, too.  It's somewhat cumbersome and has two leashes (sort of - you have to see it, the leash is a loop).  While it is very effective and calming on Sequoyah (I try all the equipment on her because she will tell me immediately if something sucks, lol, while Sioux will just go along with anything), I find that it is a bit difficult for newbies to fit and adjust.

spiritdogs

 I don't know why you would think it takes weeks to acclimate a dog to the GL, because it certainly doesn't (unless you have a pretty dumb GSD, and I don't know many that fit that description lol). 

The leash around the loin thing is interesting and probably similar to what I do to fashion an emergency harness using the leash - we teach it to students for when their dog chews the harness off, or they have to get a very frightened dog safely from one point to another and think the dog might try to back out of its collar.  

Days, weeks....to me if it takes ANY amount of time to have to acclimate, then I'm not very likely to use it.  The fact that it comes with a DVD you need just to get it fitted right just makes it too annoying for me as a handler.  They have little value to me since my dogs are not out of control on walks and I don't see how a GL is in any way useful as a training tool for anything else.

Also, I hate the head halters b/c when fitted correctly they rub and leave marks.  Not necessarily harmful for the dog but I personally just don't like the appearance, especially on a dog being shown.  There's enough tools out there to choose from.

I like the leash around the loin if more control is needed b/c it's so simple and you can do it with the tool (leash) you already have.  Doesn't require any acclimation at all or an instructional DVD.  It's how I move Nikon around at dog shows or going from the van to his tracks (keeps him from tracking his way to the track which we don't want).

A head halter is no different than any other tool when it comes to comfort, proper fit, and use.

My girls both have head halters. Gaci uses a Gentle Leader, Shimmer uses a Halti. They use different ones because they fit their heads differently, and one fits better than the other. Gaci also has a front-clip harness. I also have a tracking harness. I have a slip collar/leash combo I use for certain things. Their regular wear collar is a martingale, and I also have a buckle collar for other occasions. Every item has its use for different situations. The head halters, for me, give head control in situations it may be needed. Not about pulling, not about manners, but about simple control in case the need arises with special needs dogs. If I don't need head control, then I can use a harness or a regular collar.

Shimmer needed no training for her head halter.

Gaci did need some training, and still doesn't "love" it. But to be honest, she equally "tolerates" sweaters, any harness, even putting on/taking off collars. Her body language is the same no matter what. She just hates being dressed. Once it's on, she's fine. So it's nothing against the head halter when it comes to her.

Head halters need some knowledge for a proper fit. But, so do any other collar!! A martingale needs proper fit to be used properly. A prong collar certainly needs an experienced understanding to use properly - size of prongs, how many prongs, micro or not, etc. I've seen far too many folks (even just on here) who use the wrong fit of prong collar for effective use. A choke chain is no different. Choosing the length, the chain size, and the thickness is hugely dependent on the dog and the use of the collar. Ecollars need to be worn at a specific tightness for proper use.

To be honest, I like that the head halter companies give instructions on proper fit of the collar. Most other collars do not, and it's not because you don't need proper fit, that's for sure. The other most improperly-fitted collar IS the prong collar. I'd rather have too much information included in a packet than not enough.

The head halter never left marks on my Schnauzers. The GL left some marks on the top of Aspen's (The Staffy I fostered) nose, but when I changed to a bigger size that issue went away - it just wasn't fitted to his muzzle properly.

The best "acclimation" I've found didn't come from any videos, it came from simple practice and finding out what worked well and what didn't. I don't spend a lot of time getting dogs used to head halters...rather, I pair them with things that the dog loves anyway - mealtime, walks, and training (for treats). The easiest, and quickest way, I've found that dogs get used to the halter is to put it on before a meal, feed the meal, and take it off after the meal. The dog very quickly learns that halter = good stuff, and will develop a good emotional response to it.

I couldn't stand watching the video. Not because I think she has a bad message, but I just don't like listening to people talk for six and a half minutes. BUT! I know what message she is teaching, so I don't think it's necessary to watch in the first place. :)

That said, this seems to have become a discussion about head halters vs. prongs vs. everything else, and really, even as a positive-only clicker trainer with my own dogs, I still dislike and do not advise head halters. I don't advise prongs either, chain or nylon slip collars, or much of anything else. For me, I train my dogs on either a flat buckle collar, a martingale collar (for safety reasons, not for correction reasons), a harness, or an easy-walk harness.

My current dog is walked on a harness only. I feel it's safer, and if he chose to pull, he will not be doing any damage to his trachea. All of my future dogs will probably also be walked on a harness. I've gotten a lot of weird questions about it, but really, I feel it's safer. And since I don't give leash corrections during my training, the inability to correct my dog on a harness is a moot point. If I ever had a dog that was out of control, or I couldn't physically walk he was pulling so hard, I'd probably try an Easy Walk harness. I've never used one on a personal dog, but I've used them extensively at the facility I volunteer at, and I do like them way more than I ever liked using a Halti on my dog.

And yes, I've used a Halti on my dog. He was properly acclimated to it and found it enjoyable, because when the Halti he came out, he knew he was going somewhere! But I still never really liked it. I went to a 8 week training class that recommended them, thus why I used them, and I realize that the entire class's dogs found them aversive at some point during the training. Also, I am unconvinced that head halters do not cause damage to dogs' necks.

spiritdogs

Why do you refuse to understand that it doesn't take *weeks* to acclimate a dog to a GL???

What? I was talking about my own dog. I know some dogs take less time to acclimate to a head collar.

 

Also, the dogs you have seen rolling on the ground have very likely *not* had the acclimation done properly, as the number of dogs that would truly never accept it is probably very small - after all, dogs get used to all kinds of other things without fuss - nail trimming, force dryers, wobble boards, agility chutes, etc., even though there are some dogs that never do, the number is equally very small.

My point is that I don't want to put any tool on my dog that causes a reaction that extreme if it is not necessary. 

Again, I think head collars can be used correctly in the right circumstances. What I don't understand is how someone like yourself who is so vehemently against using aversives so happily uses a tool like a head collar? Do you not think that it's aversive, on some level, in order to work?

The public are not the only ones who want a quick fix - which is certainly evidenced by the number of people here who continue to use prongs, chokes and e-collars to accomplish their goals.  The coin flips both ways.

So when you use a head collar when training clients dogs, do you consider it a quick fix? Or do you think that the way you use it, and the training you do with it, is important?