Positive Training as a Philosophy - Clicker Trainer vs. Training With a Clicker

    • Gold Top Dog

    Positive Training as a Philosophy - Clicker Trainer vs. Training With a Clicker

    This video captures the essence of why "clicker trainers" are different from people who may use a clicker in their training program, but then also use punishment.  The first group can't understand the second group's wanting so badly to hold on to the punishment option, as we discussed on various threads lately, but this may clarify, for some, why we feel that punishment is not often necessary to deal effectively with unwanted behavior.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyVjj7GhZbM&feature=channel_page

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    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    why we feel that punishment is not often necessary to deal effectively with unwanted behavior.

      Thank you for the link, Anne.  I've been thinking about the above and haven't gotten a good answer from anyone else, so I'm coming to you since you are very knowledgeable on this topic of purely positive, (sans punishment) training.  I can think of a particular set of dogs, who with no leash pressure, have come up a leash and struck the handler with enough force to leave a bruise and pierced skin.  What is the effective way to deal with such behavior in the context of positive-only training?  Clearly, ignoring it is so counter-intuitive and dangerous, so I'm wondering how you would deal with that.
    • Gold Top Dog

    miranadobe

    spiritdogs
    why we feel that punishment is not often necessary to deal effectively with unwanted behavior.

      Thank you for the link, Anne.  I've been thinking about the above and haven't gotten a good answer from anyone else, so I'm coming to you since you are very knowledgeable on this topic of purely positive, (sans punishment) training.  I can think of a particular set of dogs, who with no leash pressure, have come up a leash and struck the handler with enough force to leave a bruise and pierced skin.  What is the effective way to deal with such behavior in the context of positive-only training?  Clearly, ignoring it is so counter-intuitive and dangerous, so I'm wondering how you would deal with that.

     

    I am curious just what would be a good answer?

    How often does it happen?

    What kind of dogs?

    Are thet still bred from?

    Waht percentage of the overall population are they?

     


    • Gold Top Dog

    miranadobe
    who with no leash pressure, have come up a leash and struck the handler with enough force to leave a bruise and pierced skin. 

     

    What were the circumstances that preceeded this behavior?  What's the relationship between handler and dog?   You make it sound as though the dogs, for no apparent reason, decided to bite the handler.  There's not enough info, IMO.

    miranadobe
    Clearly, ignoring it is so counter-intuitive and dangerous, so I'm wondering how you would deal with that.

     

    How was it dealt with and what was the result?  Short term and long term?

    • Gold Top Dog

     It's easier to ignore a muzzled dog;-)  Muzzling might not be my first choice, but, depending on the situation, I would certainly consider it, especially if the handler is a nervous type who might not be good at follow through. 

    With herding and working breeds in particular, there is often a lot of what would ordinarily have been normal behavior that gets displaced and  takes the form of leash biting and nipping at the handler.  Some of these dogs have an inherent need to control their environment or to stop motion, and with no burglar or no sheep, they displace these out of context behaviors onto other things.  So, I would want to question the handler thoroughly about how much (and, much more importantly, what kind of) exercise the dog is getting.  You can physically exercise some dogs until the human is exhausted lol, yet you haven't made a dent in tiring (or stimulating the hard wired needs of) the dog!  Often, it is the mental or problem solving exercise that's lacking, and that can be more tiring, and more effective in sating the dog's needs, than the physical stuff.  So, for such dogs I often recommend first that they get hand fed for a week (increases the importance of the handler), then all their meals are fed to them from various interactive toys or food puzzles, and then that they get a real "job."  The job is open to discussion - could be anything from agility, to herding, to frisbee, to scent games.  I also find that such dogs are often corrected a lot, yet they continue to escalate because they are being corrected for what amounts to hard wired behavior (to them, even though we think it undesirable in the context in which it's exhibited).  I just helped re home a cattle dog in that situation.  His bites had left severe black and blues on his owner, and he had broken skin most recently.  Clearly headed in the wrong direction...   I did not realize it initially, but he had been alpha rolled and yelled at since age 5 months by a household member.  Now, he is a clicker trained dog, living with the trainer who fell in love with him instead of fostering him, and he is a model canine citizen!   He did not require a muzzle, he required a *job* which he got.  I do think that it's important to evaluate whether a handler is able to comply with a behavior modification and training regimen - in this dog's case, the owner got wonderful advice from two trainers and a Ph.D. behaviorist, but was quite ineffectual in implementing it.  Once the regimen was implemented the dog "got it" very quickly. 

    Sensitive dogs can get leash grabby if you use slip collars or prongs on them.  They feel the pain and direct their activities to the leash in an effort to stop it, whereas a pain insensitive hound or Lab might think it's nothing to worry about.  So, get the training collars off if you have been using them.  I'm not above looking a bit ridiculous by putting a snug t-shirt on a dog if I don't have an properly fitted anxiety wrap (http://www.anxietywrap.com/About/).  I've seen Brenda Aloff use these with great success on some very reactive dogs.  Reactive doesn't just apply to "reactive to other dogs" it can apply to reactive to other stimuli, such as collar pressure or even air blown at them (my Aussie is so reactive to that that she will  jump off the chair if I accidentally huff at her the wrong way - thankfully, she doesn't bite at my face, but I have seen that from some dogs...). 

    Prevention is important, so these are dogs that I generally will walk in a Gentle Leader or a Halti (after acclimation of course).  I find that some dogs object to a Halti less because it doesn't sit as close to the eyes as the GL, although you can't close their mouths with one.  The GL will allow a handler to gently close a dog's mouth and remain safe from the unwanted behavior, while still able to feed treats for desired responses.  If the dog is mouthy taking treats, this can help: http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1355&ParentCat=54  Peanut butter is great because it has the dog lapping longer, so less time available to try to mouth the leash.  You want to increase the number or duration of good responses, and cause the dog to realize that NOT biting the leash is more productive than biting it - dogs do what works.

    Another tactic commonly used by working dog trainers is to have a calm well trained dog or two along for a walk.  Dogs in groups tend to do things together, so if the dog in question is friendly with other dogs, this can help.  The older, more experienced, or more calm, dogs serve as a model for the dog being trained (much as is done with hunting or herding dogs).   Any time he mimics them, he gets a reward.

    Any time I am between exercises with a dog such as this, I consider using a "settle" exercise.  I simply step on the leash so that jumping up becomes impossible, but the dog is free to sit, lie down, or stand.  Once I say "settle" I ignore the dog - he learns that the word basically means "at ease."  Initially, I don't overuse the privilege, I intersperse it with fun exercises - to build in a shut off switch. 

    Always end training with these dogs on a good note.  If the dog does NOT jump up to grab, jackpot his efforts at self control with a little smorgasbord instead of just one treat, and let him relax, or go off to play a game he likes.

     

    • Puppy

    Spiritdogs, I am genuinely curious. Is there a reason why you use head collars but won't use other aversive training tools like prongs or slip collars?

    What do you do with dogs who don't adjust to the head collar?  I've met quite a few dogs (my own included) who find them highly aversive even when trained on them properly, to the point where they completely shut down when wearing one. I've also met quite a few dogs who find them more aversive than tools like prongs, and while they shut down completely on a head collar work far more happily on a martingale or prong collar. It always reminds me of Suzanne Clothier's article 'The Problem with Head Halters'.

    The risk of injury with head collars especially on dogs who lunge really disconcerts me. My canine chiro can't stand them for this reason.

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    Prevention is important, so these are dogs that I generally will walk in a Gentle Leader or a Halti (after acclimation of course).  I find that some dogs object to a Halti less because it doesn't sit as close to the eyes as the GL, although you can't close their mouths with one.  The GL will allow a handler to gently close a dog's mouth and remain safe from the unwanted behavior, while still able to feed treats for desired responses.  If the dog is mouthy taking treats, this can hel

     

    I have always been slighlty ambivalent towards haltis and gLs for many of the dogs that i used to help (mostly hper OTT adolescent gun dogs..).

    The owners are usually so wound up by the time they get any help that they tend to not use the product that well. 

    It is not that unusual if you get heavy handed for a really gung ho Lab and some other gun dog breeds such as Weis  to decide that a relatively controlled bite might stop you. My own dog did it to a trainer that decided that an approppiate response to him humping his  GSD was to correct the hell out of him. I certainly had accidental contact with his teeth over the years. You learn than bite inhibition is best taught as a puppy as far sa treats go, and can be very difficult to teach as an adult.

    I love this product and it works extremely well and is Aussie designed not far from where i live.  

    http://www.blackdog.net.au/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=2&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=5 . I am refering to the infini 8. 

    It fits really nicely on gun dogs off all kinds AND will work on dogs like boxers and mastiffs.

    I also like the ezywalker for the adolescents as well, but i worry about chaffing if not correctly fitted.

    I do not need to use these products with my dogs, both will walk nicely next to me if asked . But i do have a poodle sized infin8 just in case.

    • Gold Top Dog

    huski

    Spiritdogs, I am genuinely curious. Is there a reason why you use head collars but won't use other aversive training tools like prongs or slip collars?

    What do you do with dogs who don't adjust to the head collar?  I've met quite a few dogs (my own included) who find them highly aversive even when trained on them properly, to the point where they completely shut down when wearing one. I've also met quite a few dogs who find them more aversive than tools like prongs, and while they shut down completely on a head collar work far more happily on a martingale or prong collar. It always reminds me of Suzanne Clothier's article 'The Problem with Head Halters'.

    The risk of injury with head collars especially on dogs who lunge really disconcerts me. My canine chiro can't stand them for this reason.

     

    Any piece of equipment, improperly used, can cause harm.  I don't think anyone would argue with that, including me.  However, the reason I don't use prongs is that they cause pain, and I have seen too many dogs whose aggressive or fearful behavior is amplified when they feel pain.  In almost every case that I have dealt with in which an owner tells me his or her dog hates the GL, or shuts down, I find that they did not acclimate the dog as instructed.  That isn't always the case, and I agree that some dogs do find them unpleasant, but it happens less than you think if the proper protocol is really used.  For people whose dogs really do find a GL aversive, obviously I would go to something else, usually a no pull harness, of which there are many types.  The best solution, of course, is to be able to work the dog on a flat collar with a loose lead, and if the owner has the same training aim, then it's clicker and reinforcement time.

    BTW, just for the record, if you are using the head halter correctly, your dog has little room to lunge.  This is not a piece of equipment that should be used when dogs are out at the end of the line, but, rather, when they are close in to the handler.  Don't forget, too, that I was asked about a dog that is biting at the handler.  There are few ways to stop that behavior nicely if you don't use a device that can either keep the dog's teeth away, or close his mouth.  And, IMO, most dogs that exhibit that behavior are displacing, so you don't want to "correct" the behavior so much as you want the dog to direct it to an appropriate outlet (sheep, frisbee, food puzzles, etc.)

    • Gold Top Dog

     Poodleowned, a bit OT, but when I checked out that web site, I was struck by how similar in principle the training head halter is to Monty Roberts' design for his "dually halter." 

    • Puppy

    spiritdogs

    Any piece of equipment, improperly used, can cause harm.  I don't think anyone would argue with that, including me.  However, the reason I don't use prongs is that they cause pain, and I have seen too many dogs whose aggressive or fearful behavior is amplified when they feel pain.  In almost every case that I have dealt with in which an owner tells me his or her dog hates the GL, or shuts down, I find that they did not acclimate the dog as instructed.  That isn't always the case, and I agree that some dogs do find them unpleasant, but it happens less than you think if the proper protocol is really used.  For people whose dogs really do find a GL aversive, obviously I would go to something else, usually a no pull harness, of which there are many types.  The best solution, of course, is to be able to work the dog on a flat collar with a loose lead, and if the owner has the same training aim, then it's clicker and reinforcement time.

     

    Thanks for your response, Spiritdogs. 

    Even with my dog aggressive dog, I have never needed to use anything more than a martingale (and that's for safety reasons as his head is quite narrow and he can therefore slip any flat collar). When you saw him in a head collar it was clear that it was painful and incredibly uncomfortable for him, so the idea that prongs shouldn't be used because they cause pain is a bit redundant for me. Head collars wouldn't work if they weren't aversive to the dog, and some dogs find them more aversive than others. I've seen the change in dogs who have gone from being walked on head collars and being completely shut down to being trained properly on a prong and working happily with their tail wagging, eyes brighter etc. They were the kind of dogs who found the head collar aversive from the moment it was put on, refused to take food or really engage with the handler etc. That's not to say that head collars can't be used appropriately in the right situation with the right dog, but I've seen them misused so many times (some trainers like to smack them on any dog instead of actually training them, the same with the general public who are after a quick fix) that it's really put me off them.

     

    ETA:

    And, IMO, most dogs that exhibit that behavior are displacing, so you don't want to "correct" the behavior so much as you want the dog to direct it to an appropriate outlet (sheep, frisbee, food puzzles, etc.)

    But surely, some dogs would find the head collar 'corrective'? In my dog, and in others I have seen, the head collar created more stress because the dog found it so aversive. 

    As for the 'acclimatise the dog' to the head collar point. Why would I want to persevere with a tool that shuts my dog down and clearly causes him discomfort? Why would I want to get him 'used to' something that he finds so aversive? It may just be my opinion, and I do understand there are situations where head collars are useful, but if I put a tool on my dog and it causes such a severe reaction that's not a tool I want to be using.

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    Any piece of equipment, improperly used, can cause harm.  I don't think anyone would argue with that, including me.  However, the reason I don't use prongs is that they cause pain, and I have seen too many dogs whose aggressive or fearful behavior is amplified when they feel pain.  In almost every case that I have dealt with in which an owner tells me his or her dog hates the GL, or shuts down, I find that they did not acclimate the dog as instructed.  That isn't always the case, and I agree that some dogs do find them unpleasant, but it happens less than you think if the proper protocol is really used.  For people whose dogs really do find a GL aversive, obviously I would go to something else, usually a no pull harness, of which there are many types.  The best solution, of course, is to be able to work the dog on a flat collar with a loose lead, and if the owner has the same training aim, then it's clicker and reinforcement time.

     

    Pretty much what i have experienced. When we started teaching positive options at our old club, we introduced the infini 8 collar with great success. The percentage of people that were able to introduce it properly and have it fitted properly was very high , at a guess something in the order of the low 90s.

    I can't say the same about the standard chain link correction collars.:(( I think the percentages would have been swapped. 

    Have you ever seen a fresh xover trainer NOT do leash pops almost unconciously just for luck???

    No pull harnesss certainly helped the ones whose infin8 did not work well. 

    It would be good to see some proper studies. The head collar vs prong collar debate is one of those common stand offs in dog training. 

    • Puppy

    I should add, it is always my goal not to have to utilise any training tool. A dog that pulls on the leash is a reflection on the dog's relationship with the handler, that's not something a tool can fix or change - it just gives you a bit of leverage.

    I know trainers who have both prongs and head collars in their tool box, what they choose to use depends on what will work best for the dog.

    I would question any trainer who persevered with a tool, irregardless of what tool it was, if it was creating a highly aversive and stressed reaction in the dog. I'm sure head collars can work with some dogs, but I think it's a bit silly to assume that they are a strictly positive option and not aversive in anyway. They wouldn't work if they weren't aversive.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I don't use head collars b/c I am too impatient to spend weeks having to train and desensitize my dog just to accept the tool and none of my dogs were ever just OK with a head halter going on.  I'm trying to sell my GL!  I was at the pet store the other night and this woman started asking me about what to use for a puller.  I suggested both the Easy Walk or the GL but told her the EW is far easier to put on and most dogs accept it without any desensitization so I recommended that one first even though I've had better control with the GL.  I have flats, martingales, chokes, prongs, GL, and Easy Walk and to be honest, the best results I've had as far as stopping pulling are by using a regular lead at least 6' and basically using it to tie a loose knot around the dog's loin area.  For me this fits in the category of the no pull harnesses and head halters in that it is aversive but does not require a correction, like a choke, prong, or e-collar.  The dog controls the pressure.  I learned this trick at dock diving, since in that sport the dog cannot wear anything but a flat collar and often these dogs are so worked up in drive you cannot expect and don't want them to be free heeling out to the dock. 

    The two dogs I tried the head halters with run when they see them.  Same dogs are either indifferent or excited to see a prong collar (which isn't what we always use, but that's not the point).  Coke was fine with the EW when we were leash training him.  Nikon hated it almost as much as a head halter.  I stop using anything on my dog when I see them standing still, whining, showing avoidance, putting their ears back, etc.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I don't know why you would think it takes weeks to acclimate a dog to the GL, because it certainly doesn't (unless you have a pretty dumb GSD, and I don't know many that fit that description lol). 

    The leash around the loin thing is interesting and probably similar to what I do to fashion an emergency harness using the leash - we teach it to students for when their dog chews the harness off, or they have to get a very frightened dog safely from one point to another and think the dog might try to back out of its collar.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    poodleOwned

    Have you ever seen a fresh xover trainer NOT do leash pops almost unconciously just for luck???

     

    Nope.  It usually takes them a while to get over that...