So, if it really is the training and not the shock...

I think we need to keep in mind, though, that not everyone puts as much of their life into their dogs as we do. Some of them do not have the time, or the interest, in learning about learning theory, about "best" training methods...they just want a dog to be safe, to be happy, and to have a little bit of freedom. And I can't tell them they are wrong for that.

Frankly, my guys are trained (pretty simply, too) that they have the entire backyard to run free in, but that they cannot run past the tree line on the back yard property line or the two sides, and they cannot pass by the first wall of the house to the front yard. I have no fence, I rent so am not allowed one ....now, I was determined to not use an efence, so I worked at it. And I succeeded. But...I also know most people don't have the time, knowledge, or energy to do such work - as it starts with foundation stuff, not just a simple recall or boundary training.

I do not recommend efences. I will try to educate people into other ways of containing their animals, if they ask. There are obvious possible downfalls for efences. However, you are really just blowing smoke if you try to convince people who have used it, and have no problems with it, that they are inherently wrong. Clearly they've done something right with their dog. Maybe someday they'll have a dog that will have a very bad reaction and they will understand or rethink a situation. But, maybe they never will. You can never know. And to be honest, I don't think the rates of defective ecollars are nearly as high as it is being assumed here. I don't say that from any sort of support for ecollars, but from a mere marketing standpoint. Collars that injure, misfire, or don't work properly don't sell. Period. Yes, sometimes you'll get one, but it's probably actually quite rare.

I do not use them. I do not recommend them. I acknowledge that there are some inherent risks in using ecollars (the training or the fence kind) with certain kinds of dogs. There is a very high risk of misuse by the handler. I've seen some pretty serious outcomes of ecollar use - from prongs imbedded in the neck, to serious DA because the collar was used to teach the dog to ignore other dogs, to shut-down dogs, to all sorts of problems. I am honest when I say that I have ethical dilemmas with the use of electricity in training, that while I try hard to not let affect my judgements, I also realize our values are what they are. I live in an area with a very high ecollar use, and because of my experiences I will educate about other ways to train. Because of these risks, I do not think they should be sold on pet store shelves. I think you should be forced to learn from somebody who uses learning theory and has background in it and how to apply the stim with proper timing and efficacy - you shouldn't be able to pick one up and slap it on your dog.

But I would be lying to myself if I said that all dogs had bad reactions or would turn out that way. I do see a lot of dogs who have no obvious problems from the use of the ecollar. That doesn't mean I support their use any more, it just means I'm honest when it comes to what I see.

And while I know the risks, and I know why I teach other ways, again you can't argue with folks who use them with no problems, so there's no point in trying. If anything, I will listen to them, and listen to what made it successful for them, because that is as important as anything. You might ask why I think that is important? Because someday I may encounter a situation in which a person is devoted to using an efence, for whatever reason, and will not change their mind, and if they ask I can at least give them some safety measures to follow of "what worked for others" as well as "what didn't and what may go wrong". I can give a complete picture. Somebody may or may not jump on me and say "doesn't that mean you are supporting efences???". And I will say no, it does not, but I have to think of the needs of the dog, and what will best keep this dog both mentally happy and safe despite its situation. If giving a few pointers of what worked for someone else keeps that dog in its home or keeps a child from finding their dog dead on the highway, then I'll listen to those who do use it and try to glean a bit of useful information from them. Because I would feel awfully high and mighty if I just made the owner feel bad for using the fence (as happens a lot), didn't provide any useful information, and the dog ended up dying because that person had the guts in the first place to come to me for help and I failed to do so within that person's needs. Clearly they wanted to do the right thing, or they wouldn't have looked for help in the beginning.

Then again...I'm not in any camp. My tent is located all by itself on a little secluded island. I never was much of a follower.

But, Kim, again, I'm not a trainer, I don't have any special knowledge and I don't devote tons and tons of time to training like some folks here do.  I just basically go with my gut.  As I said, I'm not in any particular training camp, I simply prefer kinder and gentler, as I did with my sons.

I don't know what the heck I'm doing and I've managed quite nicely.  And FIVE of them earned their CGC on what training I did.........

Glenda, I think whether you realize it or not, you have a heck of a lot more knowledge than a lot of the people I deal with on a regular basis. Trust me! I've seen a heck of a lot of people who just really don't know. Even just being here and being on this board puts your general dog IQ above "average", as you read and post on many, many threads.

glenmar

But, Kim, again, I'm not a trainer, I don't have any special knowledge and I don't devote tons and tons of time to training like some folks here do.  I just basically go with my gut.  As I said, I'm not in any particular training camp, I simply prefer kinder and gentler, as I did with my sons.

I don't know what the heck I'm doing and I've managed quite nicely.  And FIVE of them earned their CGC on what training I did.........

Glenda you 'train' your dogs like I do. I call it CSI. Common sense + Instinct. I have been reading this board for 6 years. I have had a great education on every training method and canine behaviour. I have read books, watched TV shows, researched on line and have even tried a number of techniques. At the end of the day I still go by CSI. Every dog is different and every owner has different expectations. CAMPS are to restrictive.  

 99% of the dogs I meet are not trained to NEAR CGC level, including non-performance show dogs. They also, for the most part, eat Eukanuba or Purina. Glenda, you are far, far above and beyond the general dog-loving public.

OK, I didn't say I was dumber than a box of rocks!! 

Groan...when I came to the forum 100 years ago, I was feeding LB Purina Puppy........

Yep, Denise, I'd agree with the CSI method.....that's pretty much mine!

I guess that yes, I probably am "above" the average owner, but I'm sure not a trainer, or behavorialist or anything "special".  I guess I figure that if I can do it, any BODY can??

Edited to correct a word that I did not intend to use.

Well, any dummy *might* be able to if they had a GSD. But if they had a JRT, a Bugsy, a Fox Terrier, or an Alaskan Husky it might not be quite so easy. I'm not saying GSD's are easy in any way (I do not think they are....most of the ones I know come with some very weak nerves and high anxieties....the only dog that ever seriously bit me was a GSD who redirected from an outside stressor on to me, in fact I know very few nice GSD's around here unfortunately), but generally they are more likely to listen to those they respect than some of the more independent breeds (more likely = higher probability...not a guarantee. I have a Mini Schnauzer that would never leave my side, and I have a friend whose shepherd would leave in a heartbeat...).

I'm not saying it can't be done, of course it can. I've done the same myself, and generally adapt my strategies as I go as well. Each of my dogs is treated with the same respect and holds up to the same rules, but all are handled differently. I'm just trying to say that we aren't getting anywhere by browbeating.....I live with the philosophy that I want to treat other folks with the kindness and respect I treat my animals, and sometimes some very "positive" folks get downright inhumane to other people about their actions with their animals. You really do need to practice what you preach, in all species. That's all.

I agree, Kim.  We have to take the dogs into account, not just the owners.  For example, someone like me would actually WANT a dog with a lot of energy, bursting with drive.  Couple that with the type of training I do...and not only is it unrealistic to think I could contain my dog with a e-fence, it's simply not fair for the dog.  We all have our preferences as to breed, temperament, drive and how we prioritize our dogs' training.  There are traits I *like* about my dog that other people would pay a behaviorist lots of money to squash.

Liesje

  We all have our preferences as to breed, temperament, drive and how we prioritize our dogs' training.  There are traits I *like* about my dog that other people would pay a behaviorist lots of money to squash.

My youngest boy got sacked from his second home for behaviours that are very useful to me. But i guess not every one wants a dog that bounces your height when he is happy, and thinks nothing of jumping up on to the tabel till taught different.

I was just going to also take up a point on an earlier post about the effect of shock. Electric current can be a neuro transmitter or an inhibitor. It is an incredibly fine range of currents that act as an inhibitor to pain and it is this effect that TENS machines are used for. I actually wish if we were going to use e collars that we used electrodes more like TENS machine electrodes as the pain dose that we deliver to our dogs would be more uniform and that there would be less chance of missed stims. I think that sometimes these uses of Electric current are used to muddy up what a stim actualy feels like to a dog.

We have to also be aware that the behaviour inhibitions that our dogs show with stims would give a fairly strong indication that they are delivering pain. I actually think that the sequence for any stim is pain, blank (recovery) , relief. But i have no evidence that this is so.

It is not my favourite tool.

 Studies show that citronella anti barking collars are actually more effective than e collars for anti barking . The percentage of cessation is something like 90 to 90 %

Citronella acts on a completely different center of the brain, the part that processes smell. It has a true startling effect. It doesn't shut down the rest of the brain.Shocks act well everywhere in very unpredictable ways. Dogs are used to coping with overwhelming smells and have behavourial resources to deal with it.

It is not uncommon for dogs to be desensitised with time to citronella smells in a good way. If you have ever been to a place that has hot spas when you first get there, you will be over whelmed by the sulfur smells. After a while, the nose acts to start ignoring the smell so it is not so prominent.

I can overwhelm my older dog to the point of confusion by overscenting leather articles. But the overload is finite. More and more smell does not mean more and more adversive. Smell has limits of adversity.

I hear the e collar arguements over and over again and i would be being less that honest if i didn't get somewhat testy about the almost predictable responses from all quarters. There are some good internet resources that are peer reviewed that look at the impact on e collars. 

I usually start to look here first before looking at rehashed info from loaded sources.

Personally, (and it is my personal opinion)  i try not to rate adversives but sometimes you need to. E collars rate just above chain link collars which IMHO are the most over used and abused tool in the dog world  I haven't used a chain link collar in years.

spiritdogs

The first time you see a dog with burn damage to its throat, and it's your dog, will be the last time you use one.  Why not start now?

Oh if you were in my country and said something similar to that and were the head of welfare organisation, you would get sued and lose.:((( It happened because it is not technically correct.

It is most probable that the blackening of the skin around the terminals on an e collar are IMHO for an even more disgusting reason, necrosis similar to bed sores. I have often said that a major part of the under rated adverse effect of the e collar  is the pressure that the terminals exert on the skin.In an anti bariking collar scenario it is really hard to avoid long exposure to the terminals.

Personally, I've been thinking Kim's posts are quite reasonable and sensible.    (Does that mean I'm in her non-camp?)

I have experience using both efences and bark collars on dogs other than my own.  As much as I support the use of electronic training collars, I personally don't like using electronic bark collars, yet accept and prefer their use over some of the alternatives.  (I’d prefer someone use a training ecollar, though, not an automatic bark collar.)  E-fencing is less of an issue because the potential negatives are more easily mitigated.  I doubt I will ever use an electronic bark collar or e-fence on my personal dogs.  Having an education about them, though, I can make a decision based on the dog and the circumstances, should something arise in the future that would make me consider them. 

Kim_MacMillan

  not everyone puts as much of their life into their dogs as we do. Some of them do not have the time, or the interest, in learning about learning theory, about "best" training methods...they just want a dog to be safe, to be happy, and to have a little bit of freedom.

miranadobe

I read something from a nationally recognized trainer that included the sentiment that the time we have with our dogs is heartbreakingly short, so it's not unfair if owners want to spend more time enjoying their dogs and the freedoms afforded by good solid humane training that doesn't take weeks or months to learn a command.  I think about that sometimes when people complain that dog owners are "too lazy" to use "kinder and more gentle" methods that take two or three times as long to teach a dog.

Was the person specifically talking about training collars (electronic and citronella)?  I can't think of a circumstance or command which would take so much longer to teach with "positive" methods that it would make this feasible... other than a dog who barks constantly when left alone.  I don't think I am a great shakes at training, most of it is done "as you go" using the CSI method Denise menttioned!

I really don't like anti-bark collars at all, mostly because they are unsupervised when in use and what if they DID malfunction?  How thoroughly are they tested?  BUT - I would not say someone is lazy because they use one.  SOmetimes it isn't even about CHOOSING to use a faster method because the dogs life is relatively short.... sometimes, depending where you live, whether you own your own home, how sympatheticyour neighbours are.... you don't have any options other than the fast ones!  If it's a choice between being evicted, losing the dog, or using an aversive collar that gets fast results.... well you can see why some people choose it.  The major concern is, if in the haste to correct the behaviour quickly, something is overlooked.  For example: WHY is the dog barking, and has this been addressed?  If he is bored or anxious, the collar won't solve that nd you end up with a dog who manifests his boredom/anxiety some other way, or is simply miserable, and who wants that?

Even if it is slower, the kinder approach is often more thorough, and i think, due to the shortness of the dog's life, we owe it to them to be thorough, even if sometimes we need to be fast as well....

All that said, I think all this kind of implies that positive methods are slower, aversives are faster.  This is not always, or even often, the case, at least IME.  An approach which the dog enjoys can be faster, because the dog enjoys learning... he is more enthusiastic about it, which lends "speed" and also reliability.... "obeying" becomes intrinsically rewarding for the dog.  There is no "shutting down" and the brain remains fully operational.

Enough of my rambling!

poodleOwned

spiritdogs

The first time you see a dog with burn damage to its throat, and it's your dog, will be the last time you use one.  Why not start now?

 

 

Oh if you were in my country and said something similar to that and were the head of welfare organisation, you would get sued and lose.:((( It happened because it is not technically correct.

It is most probable that the blackening of the skin around the terminals on an e collar are IMHO for an even more disgusting reason, necrosis similar to bed sores. I have often said that a major part of the under rated adverse effect of the e collar  is the pressure that the terminals exert on the skin.In an anti bariking collar scenario it is really hard to avoid long exposure to the terminals.

 

Well, in that case, substitute necrosis if you want.  As someone who cared for an individual who got bed sores when he was hospitalized (because no one would listen to us and give him the good air mattress) I can tell you that it is one of the most painful situations that you can imagine, and I don't think that dogs, despite their stoicism, would like to have that feeling.  If anyone wants to sue me on a technicality over language intended to save dogs from pain go ahead and have at it.  Firstly, I did use the word "if", and secondly, it is a fact that electrical shock can burn.  Now, the only deciding factor would be whether a particular dog sustained a burn or a necrotic situation, but IMO, neither is humane.

I think about that sometimes when people complain that dog owners are "too lazy" to use "kinder and more gentle" methods that take two or three times as long to teach a dog.

I think you may be misinterpreting the intent of such statements.  As Chuffy pointed out, positive training is often faster than traditional training, certainly not two or three times slower, and I think the laziness part that we mention sometimes is that the person is too lazy to learn how to do it because the old way worked for them on their last  however many dogs.   Also, it has been my experience that the hardest shift for humans to make is to go from always wanting to *stop* the dog from doing an unwanted behavior, to wanting to *install* correct behaviors and let the unwanted ones extinguish.  Granted, if you are facing eviction, then you might have to resort to a bark collar to save your tenancy, but you cannot argue that that is the best remedy, only that it's the most expedient one.  And PoodleOwned stated the stats that come from studies on e-collars versus cit collars.  The cit collars were more effective on more dogs.  I believe the rate was 88%.

BTW, I love the looks on my students' faces when Sequoyah comes in to do a demo, and I teach her a new cue in about three seconds flat.  She totally gets that the click means she's right.  And, that's all you really need - get the behavior, click the behavior, reward the behavior.  You live pretty near Gail Tamases Fisher.  Why not go up to ADG and let her show you how fast it works on crossover dogs!