So, if it really is the training and not the shock...

I honestly don't see the point of an e fence.  I don't totally trust them so I wouldn't leave my dogs out alone anyway.  We have a ton of critters around us and THEY aren't going to have collars to keep them out.  Without a fence, we are always out with the dogs.  With one of those, we'd also be out with them.

Yesterday morning, momma and the twin fawns were roaming around.  Thor wanted to go say hi.  "Thor, leave it" was all it took.  Thor sat down and watched the deer.  Had he been out alone in an e fence I've little doubt that he would have bolted right through the fence to follow the deer into the woods.  I doubt he would want to come back and get zapped without the lure of deer.

Our front yard is fenced.  Picket fencing about 4.5 feet high.  They still aren't outside alone.  I don't want them barking at neighbors or people walking/running/biking by.  Yep, they are just doing their jobs, but if someone is there to tell them the people are ok, they stop.

Seems to me that a little training can go a long way......

First, I don't like the anti-bark collars b/c I don't like my dog being punished without my control.  Second, my barker will bark through anything, including yanks on a prong collar.  A little citronella is likely only to work him up more (and in some dogs, these aversives, unless they are immediately harsh enough to stop the dog, actually stimulate the drive).  Third, I still don't see why this collar is any "alternative" when the people who usually condemn e-collars like to condemn them on principle of how they are used, and this method is exactly the same.

I know several people have said this over and over but I truly challenge anyone who condemns ALL e-devices to just put one on.  You don't have to USE it on your dogs or agree with the method, but I would bet good money a fair deal of people don't even register the level 1 stim.  I was testing one the other day, without really thinking about it put it on an area of my body that has chronic joint problems (I was looking for more sensitive skin since I wasn't even feeling the stim on my hand).  I was surprised b/c the lower levels of stim actually felt good, it was so weird.  I looked into this an apparently you can get similar things from the Dr. for relieving arthritis and joint pain.  Might look into this since I don't like constantly taking pills, after a while that gives me chest pains which is really no better.  Doesn't mean it feels good to a dog, but it certainly is not a "shock", not anything at all like a carpet shock and I went up to Level 3.  My friend was hesitant to try it b/c she lives on a farm and thought it was like a hot wire on a fence but she couldn't even feel it.

The point of an e-collar is not to babysit the dog.  It gives the handler a better way to time -R or +P.  A citronella collar is really a step backward, even from using a traditional leash/collar correction (which are often ill-timed but don't linger).  If you do not use -R or +P, then don't use these devices.  No point in trying to make them any more or less humane or dress them up as something else.

 I don't trust any fence to contain my wild monkeys. Training, supervision, and a physical fence that they've seen and touched since the day they came home works well. I left the fenced area before Ena was taught, and she climbed the 4' fence (as a 5 lb puppy). Jewel leapt it, to find me. Now, they're both a lot more secure. Emma opens gates, and she can dig a hole the size of  my car in about 3 minutes. Leaving them outside is not an option.

glenmar

I honestly don't see the point of an e fence.  I don't totally trust them so I wouldn't leave my dogs out alone anyway

From the e-fence thread:

luvmyswissy

I have learned that most who oppose efenses never used one or have the correct environment for them.

Myra

espencer

Liesje

To me it seems the same.  I'm not a dog but I'd rather have the e-collar than citronella in my face! 

+1

+2

I've never understood why so many people think citronella is more humane than a shock.

 Same reason that head collars are supposedly "more humane" than prong or slip collars.

  I am not sure how the cit collars work - do they have the prongs to sense the vibration of barking? If so, they too will "burn" a dog in the wrong situation. The "burns" from e-collars are not really burns at all but a skin irratation/infection caused from prolonged close contact of the prongs to the skin, especially if moisture or dirt builds up under them. E-collars all come with a warning to not leave them on for more than 12 hours at a time because of the risk and to keep the prongs clean. I suspect it happens more often with bark or IF collars because they are more likely to be left on.

Lies, it's a TENS unit.  They are about the size of a ciggy pack, pretty light weight, and you can clip one to your belt.  You are wired though, if that bothers you.  4 leads run from the unit to little "stick on" patches.  You have controls to set the amount of electrical stim, and I've often increased the stim after a bit because you get so accustomed to it that you no longer feel it.

Again, if I'm going to feel the need to be out with my dogs anyway, why go to the expense of an e fence?  Or the hassle?  I have a physical fence in my front yard.  The ONLY time one of my dogs challenges a fence or a barrier is to get to me, so that's not an issue, but I still don't want them out alone.  Pity the poor jogger who gets the snot scared out of them by the first bark or two until I stop them!  I can just imagine that poor person if the dogs were out alone!  To me, it's about consideration more than anything else, and the safety of my dogs.

They've been trained, they've got great recall.  It surely doesn't hurt us to go outside with them so that they can run and play in the unfenced part of the yard.

glenmar

Lies, it's a TENS unit.  They are about the size of a ciggy pack, pretty light weight, and you can clip one to your belt.  You are wired though, if that bothers you.  4 leads run from the unit to little "stick on" patches.  You have controls to set the amount of electrical stim, and I've often increased the stim after a bit because you get so accustomed to it that you no longer feel it.

Wouldn't bother me any more than the chronic joint pain bothers me.  Currently the only thing that helps is wearing a stiff brace so I simply cannot use that joint (left thumb/wrist).

I've used them pretty extensively in the past.  Still do periodically and I don't know that they really help the pain so much as they flood the brain with different sensations so you don't really feel the pain, if that makes sense.  It was explained to me as the "gate" theory.  The nuerotransmiters or whatever are like a garden gate....you can only get so much through them at a given time....and in this case the TENS sensation is what gets through, leaving no room for the pain to get through.  That explanation was given to me back in '94 so maybe they have a different theory now.......

Kim_MacMillan

And I don't mean to burst any bubbles here, but I personally know many, many dogs who have, and will, bark through the citronella. I wouldn't say they ignore it (how can you ignore a yucky oil?), but it is definitely not punishing enough to make them stop! And it's definitely not due to "misusing" the collar...since the dog controls the barking and the citronella spray.

I probably will never use either, but if I had to choose, I do think it would be the ecollar stim....I would say it's probably far less aversive to a dog than citronella oil, and if used as a positive punisher, a stim would be more discrete and pinpoint than an oil that takes a period of time to go away. Punishers should be instantaneous....and citronella is not. I try to look at things from the dog's point of view rather than the human's, though. We don't find the citronella all that horrible....but we have totally different software dependencies than dogs do!

Critical piece of info highlighted there.  I agree with so much in this post (), but that one sentiment is, I believe, the critical difference between those who are open to learning and perhaps trying the e-devices, and those who refuse on personal principle.  Which is ok, truly, but one group's beliefs aren't everyone elses.

Meanwhile, when I worked in a pet retail shop, the citronella (bark) collars were the ones that were returned due to failures more often than the electronic ones.  (My experience was 12 or 13 citronellas to one)  The tube would break or fall apart (usually more cheaply made, to appeal to a "wider" consumer base), and the dog would remain doused in citronella all day until the owner came home.  The e-collar failures were dead batteries - which negates the sentiment that the failed collar "will burn the dog".  Seriously, theories are fun, but practical application and facts are another can of worms.

 My chiriopractor has used one on me, Lies, and it really helps. For the record, she turned up the stim so high it made my arm lift involuntarily, and it didn't hurt. It felt a little like a bug crawling over my skin.

Just a quick apology to Anne for going OT.......it's helpful info though.  Just OT

miranadobe

Meanwhile, when I worked in a pet retail shop, the citronella (bark) collars were the ones that were returned due to failures more often than the electronic ones.  (My experience was 12 or 13 citronellas to one)  The tube would break or fall apart (usually more cheaply made, to appeal to a "wider" consumer base), and the dog would remain doused in citronella all day until the owner came home. 

  That is what I have heard as well. I know someone who bought one (the one that Premier sells) and ended up having to return it multiple times due to it not working properly. 

Liesje

I was surprised b/c the lower levels of stim actually felt good, it was so weird.  I looked into this an apparently you can get similar things from the Dr. for relieving arthritis and joint pain. 

Sounds like a TENS -I bought one for use during labour when I was having Will, but never had chance to use it.  I lent it to my friend when she had her baby and she said it was extremely effective relief.

Sorry.  Back to topic.

Edit - oops, looks liek Glenda covered it - sorry!  Oh well.

Also, I have been following this thread and the feeling I am getting more and more is that I really don't like these kind of fences, and would avoid using one if I possibly could.... If you can't have a physical fence at all then I suppose an e-fence is better than none, and if you have a determined escapee, then I can see where and e-fence AND a physical fence might be an option, but I don't think I would EVER use, or condone the use of cit-collars.... for boundary training OR barking.  They are possibly the least humane training aid I can think of. 

Somehow, I feel more comfortable with the idea of an ecollar for training rather than for use with an efence... maybe because, as someone else said, it's on for a lot less time (10-15 mins?). 

I am disturbed at the thought of what would happen if such a collar malfunctioned and injured the dog, but I don't know how widespread that is, or how thoroughly these devices are tested before going on the market.  That is definitely a concern for me

miranadobe

Kim_MacMillan

And I don't mean to burst any bubbles here, but I personally know many, many dogs who have, and will, bark through the citronella. I wouldn't say they ignore it (how can you ignore a yucky oil?), but it is definitely not punishing enough to make them stop! And it's definitely not due to "misusing" the collar...since the dog controls the barking and the citronella spray.

I probably will never use either, but if I had to choose, I do think it would be the ecollar stim....I would say it's probably far less aversive to a dog than citronella oil, and if used as a positive punisher, a stim would be more discrete and pinpoint than an oil that takes a period of time to go away. Punishers should be instantaneous....and citronella is not. I try to look at things from the dog's point of view rather than the human's, though. We don't find the citronella all that horrible....but we have totally different software dependencies than dogs do!

Critical piece of info highlighted there.  I agree with so much in this post (), but that one sentiment is, I believe, the critical different between those who are open to learning and perhaps trying the e-devices, and those who refuse on personal principle.  Which is ok, truly, but one group's beliefs aren't everyone elses.

Meanwhile, when I worked in a pet retail shop, the citronella (bark) collars were the ones that were returned due to failures more often than the electronic ones.  (My experience was 12 or 13 citronellas to one)  The tube would break or fall apart (usually more cheaply made, to appeal to a "wider" consumer base), and the dog would remain doused in citronella all day until the owner came home.  The e-collar failures were dead batteries - which negates the sentiment that the failed collar "will burn the dog".  Seriously, theories are fun, but practical application and facts are another can of worms.

I find it really amusing that each "camp" uses the same argument to further their pov.  But, if we are truly looking at things from the dog's point of view, doesn't it make sense that a dog, like a person, would like to be treated like a sentient being, respected, treated fairly, not punished unnecessarily?  I think Glenda's posts have been the most sensible.  There really is no substitute for good training, humanely implemented.  If you have the exquisite timing necessary to use a shock collar, then, surprise, you don't need one!!!  Nor do you need the cit collar.  The point of all this is that you don't need either - they are just short cuts for people who are too lazy or unskilled to train a dog without the use of pain *or* distasteful odor.  I still maintain, however, that the odor, while noxious to dogs, is not as bad as taking a chance that a dog will sustain chafing, burns, or pain.  The first time you see a dog with burn damage to its throat, and it's your dog, will be the last time you use one.  Why not start now?

Just to be clear, I'm not in ANY camp.  I absolutely lean towards "kinder and gentler" but I did use a dreaded prong with Thor.  Nor am I particularly skilled or knowledgeable regarding training.

I do what feels right to me and what I hope will feel right to my dogs.  They are members of our family, but any family member has to learn some rules and be willing to follow them.  I guess I try to "raise" the dogs, similarly to how I raised my sons...with love, guidelines and mutual respect, but never crossing the line into friend instead of parent.