So, if it really is the training and not the shock...

I wouldn't say that aversives are necessarily quicker than proper reinforcements in the least! I think that what works the best depends on the situation, and on how much effort you put into it. I don't think anyone here necessarily thinks that either one is faster than the other as a rule, although I could be wrong.

The thing with something like a bark collar, is that it works like a band-aid. The dog is quiet while the collar is on, and will resume barking when the collar is removed. The dog learns very well the exact stimulus that causes the citronella or the e-stim. They don't learn "not to bark", they learn "not to bark while collar is on". That is an important difference to note. It's not that the aversive fixed the problem "quicker".....the problem is not "fixed", as I consider a fixed problem one in which the dog no longer needs the collar at all and still doesn't bark.

For instance, with Shimmer, she can not handle aversives. She doesn't have the confidence to. There are aversives she faces that most folks wouldn't even consider aversives. Walking toward her with a certain demeanour is aversive for her. But, she also learns lightning-fast with the type of training that we do, which is proper rewards, working at her pace, and frequent rewards. I don't think I have ever implimented an intentional P+ for her, and she has learned a heck of a lot of skills and tricks and is a driven, willing little worker. If I tried an efence with her, the first stim would likely be effective, but she'd also be shattered emotionally and in confidence. She'd walk on eggshells for a long time and never be comfortable in that area for a long time.

Then there's Gaci, who I could pick up by the collar and carry out of the bush and she would be rip-raring to go....one time she snarked at another dog and without thinking I grabbed her beard (a dog's best handle....*G*) and quickly pulled her back. Well, what *might* have been a punishment increased her drive to run an excellent agility sequence, such that my trainer thought that we might do better if I roughed her up more often!! There are all sorts of things that she doesn't give a hoot about. For the things one might consider using P+ for, she shrugs off like it's nothing. But in other circumstances a simple raising of the voice is enough to quell her antics. For her, an efence would not stop her, I'm sure of it. She has cut herself, gotten burrdocks in her fur so thick she could barely breathe, ripped out toenails, you name it. When she's driven, she's committed to her cause no matter what lays in the way. She's been a challenge for sure, but she's come a long way and she has earned offleash status.

Zipper would likely learn an efence pretty well, and without too much fallout. But he's got a super-stable personality and nothing fazes him, and he doesn't push the limits on things. He's just a go with the flow kinda guy.....which, on the other note, is what made it so easy to teach him to stay in the yard with no other means. He doesn't need any sort of *physical* boundary. He knows his perimeter and he will walk the edge of the property line and mark on his *spots*, without venturing too far. Once in a while he'll be sniffing and walk a foot or so past, but he quickly puts his head up and comes back over to "his side".

OK, but why not a bark "box" instead of a collar?  When we were in the campground I got an electronic box that emits a sound only the dogs can hear and that works absolute wonders for them.  With so many, any kind of collar wasn't an option, but the box did the trick, along with reinforcement from us.

I see lots of folks down here putting prongs on VERY young pups.  Since we often walk around the lakeyard I meet a lot of dogs and even more young pups and too many of them are wearing either prongs or choke collars.  One afternoon this week I was down there with Theo and Tyler.  Both were on 30 foot lines and when a gal come surging up beside me with a young gsd on a prong I asked my guys to wait.  They stopped moving, and sat when I asked......they were near the end of their lines so that must have impressed her.  This gal looked like she was going to faint.  We started chatting since she was fascinated by "how I did THAT".  Her pup kept right on pulling on the flexi lead, prong not fazing him in the least.

That at least was an occassion when I could explain how *I* teach pups to walk on a loose lead without a "tool" and I took advantage of the combo to explain that the flexi just encouraged pulling.  She wasn't using the prong to correct pulling, but because she was told that if she used one her dog would never pull.  I just looked at the pup pulling away and asked "so hows that working for you"??

This was a great opportunity for me to help someone, and her pup, and she listened and seemed very open to learning, not because of what I know or don't know, but simply because of my dogs behavior.  We walked a bit together and she was dumbfounded that my dogs would stay "on the sidewalk".  Normally I let them roam a bit but, with all the lights up and cords strewn all over not an option right now.

My dogs are NOT trained to the level that many dogs here on the forum are.  They are trained to the degree that I feel comfortable taking them out in public and can rely on decent behavior. 

To be very honest, my gsd's are the HARDEST dogs I've ever owned.  They are far too smart for my own good and they really keep me on my toes keeping them busy so that they don't find jobs for themselves!  I've had to learn and grow a whole lot to keep up with them, and I STILL prefer "kindler and gentler"

Glenda, that reminds me of this past Halloween....we took the dogs to go pumpkin-shopping. Anyhow, we saw a really neat setup with some pumpkins, haybales, and grains, and thought it would be a nice spot for a photo shoot with the pups. So we took them out and led them to the spot. I had them all either sit or down-stay in position and then got myself set up with the camera, while they remained motionless. Kids were running by, screeching, people stopped to look. One lady asked if she could take their photo, and I said yes. She said "Those are the most well-behaved dogs I've seen!" and took a few shots.

It made me proud because the two girls are not social, but you would never have known because they knew their job and knew I would handle the situation. And people came, crouched down, kids stared and pointed, and the girls didn't even so much as make a peep.

It's a great thing to get the opportunity to use your own dogs as "proof in the pudding", that you actually walk the walk and don't just talk the talk. I've had the chance to really stop and talk to some folks about different issues. I remember the manager of a local pet supply store laughing out loud when she came around the corner and saw me working with a customer about the proper Halti to buy and how to use it (and how not to use it!).

 And Paige....you can't join my non-camp. If you join, we'll then be a camp, albeit a small one. But...you can set up your tent on the other side of the property line and we can be non-camp neighbours. As long as your dogs respect your boundaries and mine respect mine, we'll all be content!!

spiritdogs

You live pretty near Gail Tamases Fisher.  Why not go up to ADG and let her show you how fast it works on crossover dogs!

 I used to live there, I live in Denver now.  But I've been there, competed against students from there, and met a number of ex-students. 

spiritdogs

And PoodleOwned stated the stats that come from studies on e-collars versus cit collars.  The cit collars were more effective on more dogs.  I believe the rate was 88%.

That's cool when that happens isn't it Kim? 

The long lines are "lets go for a walk and enjoy ourselves".  Tylers Martingale lead signifies "we are working now and need to make a VERY good impression".  The "normal" leads are for walks when we are going to be around a good number of people.

We were walking past the nursing home one day a few weeks ago, and there were several folks sitting outside on the porch in their rockers.  Tyler REALLY wanted to go see the old folks so I walked a bit into the parking lot and asked the gal who was out with the folks if it was ok to come closer....told her that Tyler had done some work in nursing homes and assisted living facilities and he just wanted to say hello.  She said it was ok so long as I didn't let him scare anyone.  Tyler just walked closer, sat down and waited for someone to 'pick him'  We've been invited to come back anytime!

The funny thing with Tyler is that he was the pup who was "returned" because he was so ill mannered!  And Tyler got a bit of extra attention because he had absolutely NO self confidence or self esteem when he returned.  I had a lot of suggestions from people here on how to help him, but in the end, it was mostly letting him find his own "thing" and we just stumbled accidently on what he excelled at.

On the subject of electronic shock collars, I've had one used on my arm. On the lightest setting it felt like a slight buzz and was fine. If I remember correctly, the collar had like a 1-10 setting, and when put on a 5, it was pretty painful and my entire arm from the elbow down (I was shocked between the elbow and wrist) tingled for about 18 hours. And by tingled I mean a feeling similar to your arm starting to fall asleep. VERY unpleasant.

See, some folks say they feel like nothing, that they feel good, and some say unpleasant and/or painful.  If PEOPLE are so differently affected by them, how do we have any way of knowing how individual dogs are affected?

Chuffy, I've taught two different dogs one thing each using entirely aversive training (one with an e-collar and one not).  It was not a case of this method being faster, but both skills these dogs needed were a safety issue.  To me that is different than teaching the dog a trick, or competition obedience, or some useful household manners.  When it is a safety (which can escalate to life/death) issue, I have no problem using an aversive to make my dog "fear" something.  If I lived in certain areas out west, I would be doing rattlesnake aversion training the same way....make the dog terrified to get near the snake.  As long as this type of training does not shut down the dog (which it didn't) then I have no qualms about using it when it is a matter of the dog's safety and not just a behavior I want the dog to perform.

The only problems I've had with positive methods being slower depends on how the dog is loaded up.  I tried teaching Nikon the sit out of motion using his ball as a lure and reward.  We worked on this one dang skill for over five months and he still wouldn't get it (in the mean time he learned all the other out of motion exercises, the fronts and finishes, and the correct heeling behaviors).  The problem was that he was so loaded up by his ball drive he literally locked up.  He just couldn't physically "sit" when the ball was in view.  Instead I showed him the ball, put it in my armpit, commanded the sit, and voila! sit out of motion, release, ball reward.  Also if I try to train him with food and he's hungry he just gets nuts.  Unlike most trainers who insist I train and track my dog when he's hungry, it just causes frantic, obsessive behaviors in my dog.  When we track, I feed him about an hour before.

Now, I could totally be wrong, but I've heard and read in several books that it is possible dogs are even MORE affected by e-collars due to a higher concentration of sodium in their blood/body. But really who knows. I just know that my experience with them was unpleasant and gave me a lasting effect (a 5 on a 1-10 scale!), that I would not subject a dog to that. And that was just my arm, I would hate to know what that felt like around my neck. I'd rather just use preventative measures until I could re-train an incompatible behavior than shock a dog. And if I could NOT train an incompatible behavior, I would just use good old prevention. That's me, though, but I don't see a use for shock collars and will most likely never use one.

Liesje

I was testing one the other day, without really thinking about it put it on an area of my body that has chronic joint problems (I was looking for more sensitive skin since I wasn't even feeling the stim on my hand).  I was surprised b/c the lower levels of stim actually felt good, it was so weird.  I looked into this an apparently you can get similar things from the Dr. for relieving arthritis and joint pain. 

This gave me a neat image in my mind. You wearing an e-collar on whatever affected joint and walking the perimeter every hour or two just to get the therapy.

I'm not all that happy about using an e-collar because I have been shocked a number of times. Then, again, different creatures have different neurologies. Any tool can be used in a good or bad way.

But there are some dogs for whom an electric shock means nothing when they are locked on target. For them, a spray of citronella might be a stronger correction and be the very thing that works. I think it's a valid tool to be used. It is + P. Trained properly, it can be an effective use of +P. In my opinion, an effective use of +P becomes less necessary over time, if it does work. As for having the dog identify +P with me, I don't want that to happen. Here's why. +P is stop a behavior. To associate the undesired behavior with the punishment. I don't want my dog associating me with punishment. He may quit looking to me, especially since punishment can have a tendency to cause a behavior to decrease. Punishment doesn't just work only when we decide it works. It works all the time. So does rewarding.

 I've also heard that it can take more repititions for a dog to realize that a bad smell is a reaction to his behavior than for something like a shock or collar tug, and thus it can take more sprays in the face from a citronella collar to have an affect on behavior. Anyone else notice?

Punishment causes learning to deteriorate and ALL behaviors to decrease, not just the behavior he got punished for. Not saying punishment doesn't have it's place, but corrections and adversives slow down learning.

I guess that depends on what you define as a correction.  My EEEEEHH is certainly a correction, but it stops the behavior immediately.  So is "leave it" for that matter, but if Thor decides to get up and personal with the deer roaming through the yard, he in fact does "leave it".

To ME, and I could be way off track, a correction changes or stops the behavior. It isn't a negative thing, it's just a way of telling them that they are not doing what I want them to do.  And while I make a point of telling my dogs what I DO want them to do on occassion it is necessary to tell them what NOT to do, as in the case of the deer.

Liesje

When it is a safety (which can escalate to life/death) issue, I have no problem using an aversive to make my dog "fear" something. 

Sure!  Snake training, proofing recall..... I can think of times when I would consider aversives.  I think there is a time and place for them.  I am just saying that it's not accurate to imply or suppose that aversives are always - or even often - faster or more effective, as if "positive" is a soft option, and only for "tricks" or things that aren't important. 

It's hard to judge the methods against each other, because it's really apples and oranges.  I think a lot of it is the skill and dedication of the trainer, regardless of the method used.  I bet Anne (spiritdogs) could get any named behaviour from one of her Aussies faster with positive methods than I could with aversives, but that doesn't mean the method is superior..... just that the trainer is more experienced.  You could say "Aversives were most effecive for me/Nikon/this behaviour...."  But change just one of those variables and it could be a different story.

All that said I think that in most cases, for most people, positive methods force you to be more thorough.  Take the example o the anti-bark collar as I said above.... the collar might stop the barking, and maybe the owner is happy with that.... but I hope they would be worried about WHY the dog was barking and if they could address that first, the collar might not be needed.

glenmar

I guess that depends on what you define as a correction.  My EEEEEHH is certainly a correction, but it stops the behavior immediately.  So is "leave it" for that matter, but if Thor decides to get up and personal with the deer roaming through the yard, he in fact does "leave it".

To ME, and I could be way off track, a correction changes or stops the behavior. It isn't a negative thing, it's just a way of telling them that they are not doing what I want them to do.  And while I make a point of telling my dogs what I DO want them to do on occassion it is necessary to tell them what NOT to do, as in the case of the deer.

 Not saying dogs should never be told what not to do. But aversives, which is something that makes the occurrence of a behavior less likely in the future, slows learning and stops/inhibits more than just the behavior you are correcting. There is a difference between something that disrupts a behavior, such as a "ehh-ehh" or clicking with your tongue, or clapping and an aversive. (Though each dog is an individual and to some dogs a clap may be scary). That is a distraction - it does not make the chance of the dog performing that behavior again any less likely (unless you reward the response of paying attention to you, but that of course is not aversive!), it just disrupts it in the act. An aversive would be something that would make the behavior less likely to happen *again,* so a shock from an e-collar, leash tug, yelling, hitting, etc. Also, a learned cue "leave it" that says "Stop engaging in the object/thing you are currently paying attention to and refocus onto me" is not a correction, unless you use it as a warning to the dog something bad will happen if he doesn't stop his behavior.

And it always needs to be remembered that behaviors do not stop because of corrections. They become extinct because they no longer produce "good things for dogs." Dogs wouldn't chase deer if it wasn't fun. They wouldn't beg if it didn't get them food. And they wouldn't pull on the leash unless they were getting something out of it. Behaviors become extinct when they no longer produce any benefit for the animal and/or something incompatible produces better "good things for dogs."

 A correction can lower the chance a behavior will happen for awhile, but eventually it will come back if a.) performing that behavior may still get the dog "good" things or b.) an incompatible behavior hasn't been trained over it.

 Corrections inhibits ALL the dogs behaviors, not just the one it got corrected for. Many dogs trained with traditional leash pop no reward methods often times do not do anything unless commanded to. They're too afraid to do anything, even if it's not related to the behaviors that initially got punished.