E-Fences - Benign Containment??? Not

My main reason for not getting one was that I need to control who comes IN as much as who goes out.  Nikon and Kenya don't leave even when I have the gates open for yard work.  Coke leaves but I also have a tie-out so I can make sure he won't leave if I need to.  Since I put up my fence we've had multiple instances of stray or loose dogs coming by.  Nikon is NOT dog friendly with strange dogs and even though it's my property I'm sure somehow I'm still liable if my dog attacks an intruder dog, so up went the fence.  It also keeps my neighbors from pestering my dogs and being in my yard without my permission.

I've seen the e-fence work and I've seen it not work.

Benign?  certainly not.  And usually you don't see me get involved in the + and - reinforcement stuff.

Once upon a time -- but this is a TRUE story.

David and I took Tucker to foster several years ago.  Tucker was a dalmatian "mix" (probably with yellow lab) -- but he'd been owned by people who thought an electric underground fence was the easy and cheap answer to letting the dog be "free".

It didn't stop the neighbor boys from taunting the dog -- Tucker would run thru the fence and get shocked and then the boys would run back INTO his yard and he'd follow them.    Back and forth -- the kids thot it was a GREAT game -- to see the dog jiggle about as he tries to run thru the current.

Then because Tucker got "used to" ignoring it he didn't stay home.  That made neighbors mad so the same kids who teased him to run thru the fence now chased him with BB guns -- and when Tucker finally came home with a whole facefull of shot he got dropped off at the pound.

The rescue group I worked with took him to the vet and got the pellets removed from his face -- but after all of this Tucker was one of the most difficult training jobs we ever experienced.  Simply because he was so used to the aversives that he thought people existed to tease him -- and doing something a human SAID was beyond comprehension. 

We got the big goof placeable after about 3 months of intense training -- but it was obvious he'd suffered some huge mental trauma. 

But it was the typical story -- a dog who learns they can run *thru* the containment, then doesn't want to return home thru the zap unless he's chased or hurt.  And they typically don't do it willingly.  They just continue to run outside the field and don't go home.

 I've posted on this before and will again.

Our HO doesn't allow 6 foot fencing and no fencing can surround the property.  All homes are on 1-8 acre lots, there are about 200 homes and 2 entrance/exits to the community.  Traffic is residents, deliveries, and services.

As a guess, 80% of dog owners have e-fences including us.  During our 6 years here, 3 dogs have entered our property, all three came from physically fenced yards/areas, I know because I returned the dogs.  I have never had a dog come through an e-fence on a walk or other.  On our normal walk we pass 11 dogs contained by e-fences.

There is a lot of wildlife but with a dog like Bugsy I don't worry.  I also don't have to worry about dogs coming in as he thinks they are all 'fun'.

We will not have dogs teased or shot at so that concern is not applicable.

Bugsy's prey drive is through the roof, he has extreme pain tolerance, and although he is 'ours' now he was over two when he seemed start believing that   Prior to then his independent nature was prevalent.

We spent months ensuring that he understood the boundaries and respected them.  We took training him VERY seriously and it worked.  He is 100% reliable on the fence.  I have seen him go after deer and cats at full speed and pull up, scooby doo style even though he wasn't wearing his collar.  His only transgressions were to go across the cul de sac and play with a friend.  He did this intentionally in the early days of the fence, ours is quite sophisticated and has a warning sound that alerts if it senses the dog is moving quickly towards the boundary.  B didn't even flinch when he was 'shocked', he just merrily went over and was playing with the golden.

Both DH & I felt the shock and in no way is it painful - it is like a shock off a carpet. 

Bugsy can and has lept over a 6 foot fence, a four foot fence is a joke. E-fence was our only option and we were both skeptical that he would respect it.  But he does.

Like many other things it is important to consider your dog(s), your situation with regard to neighbors, wildlife, other dogs, your options,  and your dedication to application.

I posted in another thread that as I have traversed the 'net looking for a rescue GSP i have noted that they all state whether the dog is e-collar or e-fence trained and they WILL adopt out to homes that have e-fences.  Other breed rescues will ONLY adopt out to yards that are physically fenced.   I think this is very interesting as I am 100% sure that Bugsy is better with an e-fence than he would be with a physical fence.  Just as he is better in a room with the doorway gated off than behind a closed door.  We do think he is part GSP and that the coincidence of GSP rescues having no problem with e-fences suggests to me that there may be something about the breed that this containment system works better.

Lastly, once a dog is trained fully on an e-fence, it does nothing 'to' them other than define their boundaries.

 Wow, lots of harsh judgement in this thread.

I know people who have used them when their dogs have scaled 6ft fences and every other option was exhausted. 

If I had to choose between my dog becoming road kill or being shot by a farmer, and putting up an electric fence I know which one I'd choose.

You know she's NOT talking about a "hot" fence, right?  A fence with wire that has current running thru it?

What she's talking about is an "invisible" fence -- one where the wire is buried and you can't see it -- but the dog wears a collar that will zap it if they 'cross' the perimeter of the fence line.

The two are very different -- and part of the point is with an invisible fence it does NOT keep your dog out of the farmer's field nor out of the road. 

And Karen I completely understand your point -- Some housing developments leave you zero choice.  But my point is invisible fences, probably more than most any other kind of containment, can be SO incredibly misused.  Mostly because the humans using them are such morons.

calliecritturs

You know she's NOT talking about a "hot" fence, right?  A fence with wire that has current running thru it?

What she's talking about is an "invisible" fence -- one where the wire is buried and you can't see it -- but the dog wears a collar that will zap it if they 'cross' the perimeter of the fence line.

The two are very different -- and part of the point is with an invisible fence it does NOT keep your dog out of the farmer's field nor out of the road.

I know what an invisible fence is. I've seen them used with people who have fencing that dogs can scale, to keep them away from the fence line. I've seen them used very successfully as a last resort.

And Karen I completely understand your point -- Some housing developments leave you zero choice.  But my point is invisible fences, probably more than most any other kind of containment, can be SO incredibly misused.  Mostly because the humans using them are such morons.

A leash and flat collar can be incredibly misused or used to abuse a dog, that the tool can be misused isn't the fault of the tool but the person who is misusing it.

That's weird that you're not allowed to have fences. I've never heard of that.

We have a 6ft colorbond fence with logs buried underneath. There are shrubs flush against it in most places and where there aren't there's an extra foot of lattice at the top. I adore our fences. No one can see in, no one can see out. The dogs have grown up in this fortress and it has never occurred to them that there might be a way out. I can't understand how it would be less reliable in any circumstance for any dog than an electric fence. But my dad reckons Pyry would get out if I gave him a day in the backyard alone. I don't really believe him, but I haven't spent a good 6 years putting concrete under fences to foil the digging and patching up bits Pyry has broken and errecting barriers where he has been climbing out. And Pyry is a small dog.

I hope I'd never need one, but the very thought of my dogs on the road fills me with terror. I don't think I'd rely on an electric fence, though. They are already indoor dogs when no one is home. I'd rather be out with them every time they want to be out.

once a dog is trained fully on an e-fence, it does nothing 'to' them other than define their boundaries

Unfortunately, this is a generalization that you can only make for one dog - yours.  These systems have caused harm to other dogs, sometimes from external sources, and while your particular neighborhood may not have any of the little hooligans that Callie mentioned in her post, even you cannot 100% guarantee that no one will *ever* come to do harm to a dog that is left unattended outdoors in one of these containment systems, or that your next dog will be as OK in it as Bugsy is.  Some dogs are "one trial learners" and if you get one of those and he gets a shock in his own back yard, he may generalize that the back yard is a scary or stressful place.  It has happened, and to the extent that a dog will cringe and cower, submissively urinating all over itself and the carpet, rather than exit the house into the yard.  You have had good luck, but there are horror stories that will always make it worth my while to post again, too.

By the way, it is costly, but you can erect a "coyote roller" for dogs that can scale fences, and you can trench the perimeter and bury fencing so that they cannot dig out.  I would rather put concrete and wrought iron, or a fence with vertical slats, up than shock my dogs, or leave them in an enclosure that humans or predators can enter at will.  JMHO, though, and I post to warn others that these fences are not always the harmless conveniences that one thinks.

I'll preface this by saying I've never owned one or used one, although I do have a Houdini and we have considered it in the past.

The main problem I have with i-fencing is that, even if it keeps your dog(s) IN, it doesn't do anything to keep other people or animals OUT.  I remember someone posting a while ago about some coyotes that got into their yard and the injuries their dogs sustained... think how easy it would be for a predator, or a cruel human, to do harm to your dog if their is no physical barrier there! 

That said, predators can get in or your dog could get out, even if your yard is fenced.  All it takes is a weak spot.  A determined person who disliked your dog could throw poisoned meat over a physical fence. 

If the dog is a determined fence-scaler,or if you are restricted as to how high your fence can be or how it can look, I am sightly happier with the idea of a physical fence AND an invisible one.  Belt and braces if you like.  I feel that sure then there is less chance the dog could simply run through the zap if the trigger is high enough, and then be stuck outside of his own yard. I don't know if anyone has done this, or what kind of success they had with it, but it is what we considered for our situation.

My conclusion is that having ANY kind of barrier is no substitute for proper supervision!

Chuffy

My conclusion is that having ANY kind of barrier is no substitute for proper supervision!

Chuffy

I am sightly happier with the idea of a physical fence AND an invisible one. 

Corvus it is not uncommon for Home Owner's Associations to have rules about fencing

Ann as with anything if not implemented properly and without a dedication to training e-fences can have negative effects BUT implemented properly with appropriate common sense and dedicated training it isn't. And when I walk around here I can tell you it isn't just Bugsy that gets it

properly used they define boundaries the same function as a physical fence admittedly without the ability to keep others out and yes if my dog were smaller or aggressive or super timid etc I would have more concerns about using it.

small domestic animals are taken by hawks around here more than by coyotes (which are here in fair abundance) and no fence is going to stop that

Ann as with anything if not implemented properly and without a dedication to training e-fences can have negative effects BUT implemented properly with appropriate common sense and dedicated training it isn't.

Look I understand that you feel this has worked for you, but this is simply an untrue statement.  Even when properly implemented, these systems have failures, and some dogs are negatively affected despite having a well informed trainer who implements the protocol in the prescribed manner.  Just a fact, and not intended to dissuade you from your notion that all went well with your dog because you did everything right from a normal training perspective. 

 Some association rules about fencing make little sense.  My daughters assoc bans fencing around yards and dog runs or kennels. but permits fencing in a swim pool.  A fence is required by law on all pools, but unless you build a pool, you have no way to physically fence an area.  Invisible fences are permitted.  It must work, as I see people walking all sorts of dogs in the area.

I watched one of my neighbors dog. a nice little springer, trying to escape an invisible fence.  She would get on her belly and crawl towords the fence till she got nicked.  Then she would try another spot.  The owners eventually gave the dog to their son, who had land, kids and a fence.

Some dogs. with proper training, work well with invisible fencing.  Some will not accept that they are contained and will test it.  And some will ignore it completely.  My daughters dog paid no attention to the collar shock.  

My biggest concern would be that it doesn't keep out nasty kids or other pests, but sometimes a physical fence wont either.

Those kids who shot the dog in the face-did anyone bother to call a cop.  I live in a small town, and even here it is illegal to shoot at animals.  In Minnesota, an air gun or BB gun can get you in as much trouble as a real gun, not to mention the animal abuse laws.  Those boys should have been talking to a cop.

DougB

Those kids who shot the dog in the face-did anyone bother to call a cop.  I live in a small town, and even here it is illegal to shoot at animals.  In Minnesota, an air gun or BB gun can get you in as much trouble as a real gun, not to mention the animal abuse laws.  Those boys should have been talking to a cop

Amen to that. And then, how do we punish that? I mean, the kids should have some kind of consequence to their actions. And their parents, I would most likely assume, did not intend for their children to behave this way but if people can advocate some kind of curbing mechanism for dogs, shouldn't there be a way to correct dangerous behavior in kids? I struggled with this when, some years ago, the boy who lives behind us would throw things at my dog and his parents didn't seem to control it until I threatened to call the police at the very next time it might happen. Somehow, that seemed to get the message through.