E-Fences - Benign Containment??? Not

huski

I know what an invisible fence is. I've seen them used with people who have fencing that dogs can scale, to keep them away from the fence line. I've seen them used very successfully as a last resort.

I have 4 1/2' chain link around my back yard.  Two months ago we installed 7 foot stockade fencing because we have a dog who, after five years with us, decided she hated the neighbor enough to jump the fence to get over there. 

An electric fence of either kind just plain wasn't on our list of possibles because I truly think that there can always be that ONE thing that is so irresistible that a dog will escape to go for it. 

huski

A leash and flat collar can be incredibly misused or used to abuse a dog, that the tool can be misused isn't the fault of the tool but the person who is misusing it.

Of course they can -- but my point is more people DO misuse an invisible fence than any other type of containment because they use it wrongly.  It's EASY to use it wrong.  And for some dogs it's very difficult to train with it in any event.

I still think, particularly as the whole point of this thread, that it's NOT benign containment. 

And this is the crux of why I avoid such threads -- because people will descend to absurd meaningless statements to argue with.  Yes, they can work.  Are they benign?  No.

calliecritturs

I still think, particularly as the whole point of this thread, that it's NOT benign containment. 

I do agree with this and I think it bears repeating. 

Often, the reason for it being "not benign" is misuse, but still - not benign, IMO.

That said, collars and leads are probably one of the easiest tools to misuse!  Almost every dog has this set of equipment and so very few owners I see seem willing or able to use it "properly", to my view!  Dog towing owner down street.... owner yanking dog around by the neck.....  That doesn't mean  I don't think they shouldn't be on sale.... Education is, as ever, the answer (at least I think so).  Same with i-fencing.  I truly believe that if people knew what kind of work went into TRAINING the dog to the fence ***PROPERLY*** they may decide that a "normal" fence would be less hassle and expense after all!

I do wonder, out of all the horror stories, HOW MANY are from ignorance, laziness and misuse.... and how many are inherently the fault of the equipment or training system.  I am sure there are some of both.

calliecritturs

But it was the typical story -- a dog who learns they can run *thru* the containment, then doesn't want to return home thru the zap unless he's chased or hurt.  And they typically don't do it willingly.  They just continue to run outside the field and don't go home.

 Just because some people are irresponsible with IF doesn't make them "bad". I had people in my class once with an ESS that was very bright and caught onto everything super quick, except come when called. This dog would become extremely anxious when the owners tried to call him and it just got worse after a couple weeks (to the point were he submissively peed when they tried to call him). I kept asking what happened to him and they kept saying nothing. Then on week three, they asked if their IF could have something to do with it. I asked how they trained it and it came out that to "really be sure he wouldn't go through it" they would throw his ball outside of the boundary, then they'd have people come and talk to him and finally, they ran outside of the boundary and called him. They very effectively trained their dog to never, ever come to them by doing that two times. That isn't the fault of the IF though, that is the fault of owners who have no common sense.

 I have known knowledge dog people who use IF with their dogs and have no problems with it. They use it as a way to give their dog freedom when they are outside with them but still have a "back up" if the dogs decide to take off after something. I see no issues using them on most dogs if the person is willing to supervise whenever the dog is outside. That prevents the dog from being teased, from getting out or other dogs getting in and from learning bad habits. In that case it acts just as a back up to boundary training and a good recall. Most of the issues I have seen with IF have come from people who allow their dogs to spend a lot of free, unsupervised time outside in them. I also know one very soft dog who developed a fear of beeping noises and fear of crossing over other boundaries. That dog is very soft though and has a lot of other quirks that have nothing to do with the IF. She never needed the collar past the intial training though and never, ever tests the boundary. So I'm not sure for a dog who is extremely soft and likely to develop phobias the IF is the best choice. IME for the majority of dogs with sensible owners IF work just fine.

 FWIW we have only ever used 4' chainlink with our dogs but I wouldn't hesitat to use an IF or hotwire if I had a fence jumper.

Excellent point, Chuffy. One that has been made several times. With good training using other methods, one does not have to use the e-fence. And I meant to clarify my earlier point about Sibes. Essentially, keeping a Sibe is about proper physical containment. A charge up Sibe, with that double coat may or may not feel the tingle as they bound over the line. As before, proper care of a Sibe is lots of training and failsafe enclosure.

Sibe thought for the day - "E-what? Yeah, whatever ..."

ron2

Sibe thought for the day - "E-what? Yeah, whatever ..."

 

A lot of Sibe people who use hotwire to prevent fence jumping and digging.

Honestly, I think most people who use an e-fence use one without any problems.  There are a lot of them on our walk, and these are not the type of dog owners that come to boards like this.  The dogs are loved but they are pets.  Who knows, most of these families probably did not even do good e-fence imprinting and training as defined by us here, but it holds the dogs just fine. 

I have nothing against them, they just did not meet our need.  We thought about going that route, but then had increasing problems with kids and dogs coming IN our yard.  At this point I'd be more inclined to get a live wire to keep outsiders off!

kpwlee

 I've posted on this before and will again.

Our HO doesn't allow 6 foot fencing and no fencing can surround the property.  All homes are on 1-8 acre lots, there are about 200 homes and 2 entrance/exits to the community.  Traffic is residents, deliveries, and services.

As a guess, 80% of dog owners have e-fences including us.  During our 6 years here, 3 dogs have entered our property, all three came from physically fenced yards/areas, I know because I returned the dogs.  I have never had a dog come through an e-fence on a walk or other.  On our normal walk we pass 11 dogs contained by e-fences.

There is a lot of wildlife but with a dog like Bugsy I don't worry.  I also don't have to worry about dogs coming in as he thinks they are all 'fun'.

We will not have dogs teased or shot at so that concern is not applicable.

Bugsy's prey drive is through the roof, he has extreme pain tolerance, and although he is 'ours' now he was over two when he seemed start believing that   Prior to then his independent nature was prevalent.

We spent months ensuring that he understood the boundaries and respected them.  We took training him VERY seriously and it worked.  He is 100% reliable on the fence.  I have seen him go after deer and cats at full speed and pull up, scooby doo style even though he wasn't wearing his collar.  His only transgressions were to go across the cul de sac and play with a friend.  He did this intentionally in the early days of the fence, ours is quite sophisticated and has a warning sound that alerts if it senses the dog is moving quickly towards the boundary.  B didn't even flinch when he was 'shocked', he just merrily went over and was playing with the golden.

Both DH & I felt the shock and in no way is it painful - it is like a shock off a carpet. 

Bugsy can and has lept over a 6 foot fence, a four foot fence is a joke. E-fence was our only option and we were both skeptical that he would respect it.  But he does.

Like many other things it is important to consider your dog(s), your situation with regard to neighbors, wildlife, other dogs, your options,  and your dedication to application.

I posted in another thread that as I have traversed the 'net looking for a rescue GSP i have noted that they all state whether the dog is e-collar or e-fence trained and they WILL adopt out to homes that have e-fences.  Other breed rescues will ONLY adopt out to yards that are physically fenced.   I think this is very interesting as I am 100% sure that Bugsy is better with an e-fence than he would be with a physical fence.  Just as he is better in a room with the doorway gated off than behind a closed door.  We do think he is part GSP and that the coincidence of GSP rescues having no problem with e-fences suggests to me that there may be something about the breed that this containment system works better.

Lastly, once a dog is trained fully on an e-fence, it does nothing 'to' them other than define their boundaries.

 

I totally agree with Karen, I have three dogs trained on my efence and it is the best investment we ever made.  Unlike most, we live on 3 acres and our nearest neighbor is not very close.  We "had" wildlife but our dogs keep them at bay, except for the deer who know when the dogs are out or not.

 I have learned that most who oppose efenses never used one or have the correct environment for them. Our is wonderful and our dogs don't even attempt to get close to it.  There boundaries are set a 2 feet so a beep has taught them to stay two feet from the actual line.  We have our rigged to keep the dogs out of the pond if we choose which is a good thing in the winter and keeping them off the ice.   We just turn on the second tie and bring them around it and show them the new boundary and they are fine.  My biggest complain is that I can not walk my dog beyond the boundary "they won't go"!  and I won't force them cause I don't want them to think its OK ever.  So we drive them past the driveway and take them out of the car and for their walks.

On the very few occasions, twice I think, that I have met anyone unhappy with an efense it was addmitted that they did not train properly.

 I have never had an e fence, so I guess I don't know completely, but I have seen the failures of them. I picked up a dog over by a house I work at whose e collar battery was out. I've also picked up dogs who escaped a physical fence. Our yard is tiny, though we are allowed to have a fence, we don't have one. I think it is actually too small for an e fence too. The dog would begin to hit the warning boundary so early it have any room. 

I however, don't think I would let my dog out unsupervised in any sort of fence, physical or electric. I'd love to have a fenced yard to play off leash, but until I move out, there's no chance. Our dogs have always survived with leash walks, and occassionally going to an off leash area. I have someone who would let me leave my dog in her yard, and it's a big yard. However, if I left a dog in the yard, there is no telling what happens. I can't stop him from doing things I don't want him to do if I am not watching. I also can't stop people from harrassing him, or animals from getting to him. 

 My goodness, there is a lot of generalization and judgment in this thread.

It is my personal opinion that no dog should ever be left outside supervised for any length of time. REGARDLESS of the type of fencing.

It is also my personal opinion that dog owners are 110% responsible to make sure that their dogs do not ever roam loose.

With that in mind, I think that electric fences CAN be a very valuable tool for many situations. In our area, most people have houses on 2-5 acres of property, much of which is wooded. Fencing that in is both practically and economically unfeasible. So, you could fence off a small portion of the backyard (which makes things like fencing off pastures, or setting up large gardening plots, much more difficult, or you could take your dog out on leash every time it needs to go to the bathroom, or you could have an electric fence as a "backup" containment in case your dog decides to head for the hills when you open the door for a potty break.

IMO, proper use of an e-fence is NOT as a primary containment system (as in, something the dog is going to want to run up against and test), but as a "backup" when recall fails, prey drive overrides training, etc.

BF's parents use an e-fence for potty breaks (although 99.9% of the time they open the door, say, "GO PEE," the dog trots off, eliminate, and runs *immediately* back to the door) and so the dog can be outside, unleashed, while BF's mom is gardening. 98% of the time, the dog just lies down near where she is and takes a nap. 1.5% of the time he raids the compost pile instead (still on property lines). BUT, if something were to distract him and she didn't notice, the e-fence is a backup that ensures he's not going to take off down the street and get hit by a car.

A "real" fence is no guarantee against problems like intruders... I've had wild animals get in through undiscovered holes in wooden slat fences, and kids torment my dog over/through the fence. There's really no guarantee that a dog will be safe in ANY circumstance, unless there's someone there to supervise.

There's really no guarantee that a dog will be safe in ANY circumstance, unless there's someone there to supervise.

No matter which side of the e-fence argument you are on, this statement makes the most sense of anything I've heard on this thread thus far. 

And even watching, there's not always a guarantee!  I watched my dog escape in to the darkness and freezing rain, and was up until 2am until he was safe and sound.  Had to leave work early today so I had time to fix the problem in the fence.

spiritdogs

 

There's really no guarantee that a dog will be safe in ANY circumstance, unless there's someone there to supervise.

No matter which side of the e-fence argument you are on, this statement makes the most sense of anything I've heard on this thread thus far. 

 

kpwlee

 

Chuffy: My conclusion is that having ANY kind of barrier is no substitute for proper supervision!

Totally agree - and I would never leave Bugsy out without being home and checking on him with our e-fence OR with a physical fence.

kpwlee

spiritdogs

 

There's really no guarantee that a dog will be safe in ANY circumstance, unless there's someone there to supervise.

No matter which side of the e-fence argument you are on, this statement makes the most sense of anything I've heard on this thread thus far. 

 

kpwlee

 

Chuffy: My conclusion is that having ANY kind of barrier is no substitute for proper supervision!

Totally agree - and I would never leave Bugsy out without being home and checking on him with our e-fence OR with a physical fence.

Actually it has been stated by others

So it has, and thumbs up to all who did. 

spiritdogs

Ann as with anything if not implemented properly and without a dedication to training e-fences can have negative effects BUT implemented properly with appropriate common sense and dedicated training it isn't.

Look I understand that you feel this has worked for you, but this is simply an untrue statement.  Even when properly implemented, these systems have failures, and some dogs are negatively affected despite having a well informed trainer who implements the protocol in the prescribed manner.  Just a fact, and not intended to dissuade you from your notion that all went well with your dog because you did everything right from a normal training perspective. 

You know what I find interesting, is that the perimeter training done for e-fencing is the same that positive-only trainers have described in the past, right?  The difference, of course, is *if* the dog crosses the line after training.  But if training was properly implemented in the way these trainers describe, then the dog wouldn't cross the line to get zapped, right?

As for Callie's foster's experience, it's clear that someone who allows a dog to be left outside unattended to be tormented by neighbors' children was more than neglectful, and we can all speculate on what else that dog suffered.  Thankfully, his fortune changed when he came to be in her care and I hope it turned his life around to a ton of positive experiences!

So, once again (since it has been stated more than once) - supervision of your dog within any kind of fencing is the key.

miranadobe

As for Callie's foster's experience, it's clear that someone who allows a dog to be left outside unattended to be tormented by neighbors' children was more than neglectful, and we can all speculate on what else that dog suffered.  Thankfully, his fortune changed when he came to be in her care and I hope it turned his life around to a ton of positive experiences!

Look I don't have a whole lot ot offer other than to challenge that notion that a dog is "free" if it has acess to quite large areas of land. I wonder with such an arrangement how the resident wild life will get on, and for some dogs the stress that they might encounter guarding a space that might seem to be very large for them.

I at one time had a couple of acres of land. We had small cabin that was set up for them during the day and a run out the back. This way the wildlife got left alone, the dogs were secure , i didn't have to worry about the welfare of any casual visitors to our property.

Just becuase there is acerage at home doesn't mean that our dogs don't need socialisation, and some time away from the propery. I think it is always intersting to see how idle dogs are during the day when they have worthwhile activities to do with you in the evening and morning.

I have no problems using e fences that have visible wires  to prevent access to livestock or dangerous things as most dogs that i have known have been capable of successful one shot leaning as cause and effect are very obvious. Like many other writers i have huge problems with invisible fences as the likliehood of non contingent punishment is way too high.