Drives vs. Rewards; Working IN Drive vs. Training...

Great pics!  My advice is this, when you are tugging, it's all about the tug.  Once you release the dog to the toy, obedience doesn't matter.  Heck, for me "outs" don't even matter (as you can clearly see on my video my dog does not out a ball unless he is flanked yard or choked off of it).  You have it even easier since you aren't in SchH it doesn't matter how or where your dog grips the tug.  One thing we did a lot of when starting was have the dog on a drag line and when she gives you some good tugs, let go, let her "win" the tug, pick up the leash, and run her for a victory lap.  Then if she's still holding it, calmly cradle her and stroke her.  If she drops it, see if she will stand over it kind of like she's guarding it while you stroke and praise her.

What I see too often is people that get obsessed with outs.  For me, the ball is like my absolute drive popper, absolute emergency recall....why would I want my dog to out it?  I don't.  Outs are for sleeves and tugs and other less valuable objects.  Too much outing will block that drive and is too much obedience, not enough play and fun.  If I'm not in the mood to be "hard outing" my dog off his ball I just have two of them handy, make the other come alive and he will drop the one in his mouth.

Jason L

Now how Nikon outs a tug versus a ball is really interesting. With a tug his out is really quick and clean and unambiguous and his re-engagement is fast too. With the ball he is much more intense and the out seems at time to be very conflicted. With the tug he could pass for one of the dogs in Ivan Balabanov's DVD in which the training is built around fast, unambiguous outs (where the rhythm of training going like bite - out - obedience - re-bite - out - obedience). Do you ever use tug with Nikon in obedience? Are you not happy with the intensity of his drive with tug? Also, the video seems like it's more drive building (with lots of pressure and release) than obedience. Do you actually incorporate confrontational techniques llike flanking and choking in obedience?

Btw, love the fact Nikon clearly relishes a good fight. You flanked him and he is still in there fighting (with his tail wagging even!). Good boy!

 

Sometimes I use the tug if I'm sick or tired...don't have the energy to match his energy for the ball.  I also use the tug (or nothing) for working on the sit out of motion.  He locks up so much on the ball he won't sit!  The stand is fine and the platz (taught with compulsion) is fine with the ball.  The ball is just easier for me to pocket or hide in the armpit, easier for me to do the prey dance with (his targeting is better on the ball...if I'm using a tug I better have my baseball gloves on!).

The video is more to show what he will take for the ball and how it compares to the tug.  I'll try to video some actual obedience later today.  I'd say it's about 60% work and 40% tug/play/prey.  The confrontational stuff I use in obedience is a lot less, usually nothing other than pushing him with my legs to get him fighting.  With him we are more likely to use compulsion during the training than confrontation during the play.  If I choke or flank it's only because I need my damn ball back!  This dog has been flanked in every phase, lol.  We'd better quit or it won't work and then I'm really screwed!

Nikon is pretty hard, isn't he. The flanking looks more like an annoyance to him than anything else.

Liesje

My advice is this, when you are tugging, it's all about the tug.  Once you release the dog to the toy, obedience doesn't matter.  Heck, for me "outs" don't even matter (as you can clearly see on my video my dog does not out a ball unless he is flanked yard or choked off of it)

Also in tugging you want the dog to feel like he has the freedom to fight you so you have to understand how your presence can affect a dog. Stand too close and you end up putting too much pressure on the dog and make the dog feel uncomfortable and his fight drive may diminish because of that. Same with if you spend too long facing him or staring straight at him. Vary your distance to the dog and how you face the dog. In the video you see how Liesje sometimes face Nikon straight on (pressure) and sometimes she turns completely away from Nikon (release). Also, sometimes it helps to put on 6ft leash to the tug toy and tug with your dog from the end of the line. This ways it feels less that you are fighting the dog and more like you two are fighting over a toy. Another advantage of the line is you can let the dog win without losing control of the dog and the toy. When the dog win, just hold on to your line and let him prance around with the toy. As soon as he loosens the grip, quickly pull the toy away and start the game again. This way it feels less like you took the toy away from him and more like the toy just suddenly spring to life and got away.

 Lies I admire your work tremendously (and your bravery with the jump and the ball next to the TV LOL) and I couldn't help but recall you saying I should do schutzhund (sp?) with B - he isn't into a ball like Nikon but he has a ball in a sock and by golly he will hang on to that like nothing else.  In fact he and DH play that game because I just don't have the strength.  Getting him to 'out' that is extraordinarily difficult even after trying for 4 yrs!

resume your educated discussion folks 

Jason L

Nikon is pretty hard, isn't he. The flanking looks more like an annoyance to him than anything else.

 

He's a mixed bag, hard in some ways, soft in others.  Despite what you see in the video, he is very handler sensitive to me.  Which just proves by the video how obsessed he is with the ball.  But again (I know you know this but maybe not others...) that took months and months of very intentional and purposeful play and drive building.  At 7 months old, my dog was stick shy in protection and reacted to even my voice being forceful.  I can only do this confrontational stuff now because we worked so hard to build in that drive in order to raise his confidence and push him through the pressure.  I don't think I've said this before but he very nearly washed out of protection, he was just not interested in the "prey game" aspect of it and not mature enough in the head to have the confidence for real defense work.  We let it be for a while and once he was more mature in the head, it took about 2 minutes to completely turn him around in protection and we haven't looked back.  I do prefer having a more "real" dog but it can cause other complications in that the helper needs to threaten him to really bring out the power whereas prey dogs just see the sleeve and go from 0 to 110% without a lot of work from the helper (other than a few flicks of the sleeve).

Here is an obedience video, critique away! http://www.vimeo.com/7868411 I like him to be a bit more prancy and in drive than here but he was jogging with DH earlier and we were up late b/c Coke escaped last night.  So I would say his drive in this video is mediocre to good but definitely not tops (he also tends to be more relaxed when we train at our house).  His "crabby" position is a function of where I have the ball so we (being me) need to clean that up and the heeling will look more "correct".  Having already trained and titled a dog that is very correct, this time around I'm way more about the dog being animated, we can fix the position later on (and at the level we will title it won't even matter that much).

huski

Why would I want to get 80% out of her when I could have 110%?

 

Why are you so sure you could never get Daisy working as well for tug as she does for food?

I guess what I'm saying is that Kivi is not a drivey dog by any stretch. He gives me such focus when I train with him with food that for that time I am the only thing in the world for him. He gives me enthusiasm and enjoys it. But even though he is naturally more interested in food than toys, when his eyes light up for toys and tug and catch it's not the same as when his eyes light up for a recall. It's just not the same. He goes to a different place. I don't pretend to understand it, but I don't believe that it's the same thing. I don't believe that drive is drive is drive no matter what it's for. I don't at the moment believe that working in food drive is the same as working in prey drive, but I have nothing to base that on but sheer instinct. There's "I want it to eat" and there's "I want it to bite". Just my wild musings, but I think a dog treats those things differently, not just "I want it".

I'm not trying to put your methods down or insinuating that working in food drive is not ideal and doesn't produce fantastic results. You've done amazing things with Daisy. For myself, I have a weird hangup about prey drive. I don't really know why. I just used to see Pyry when he was in foraging mode and he was like a different dog. There was nothing sweeter than having him welcome me into his world when he was hunting. It was like the only time I felt like we were in accord with one another.

 For Gaci, have you tried using the tug on the end of a flirt pole? That was what I did the very most with Whimsy when I started out and I think it is works pretty well. I used a horse lunge whip with the toy tied to the end - that allows them to tug when they catch it without having the pressure to tug with you at first, if need be. And it allows you to really use their prey drive because you can get the toy really going and really give them a good chase.

I really enjoyed the Nikon videos - thanks for posting them :)

 

corvus

huski

Why would I want to get 80% out of her when I could have 110%?

 

Why are you so sure you could never get Daisy working as well for tug as she does for food?

For the same reason I know my friend who has an insanely prey driven dog, who also has a strong secondary food drive, would walk over a roast chicken for her tug toy, lol.

I actually started out prey drive training Daisy. We had a go at it for a couple of months because I was really keen to work with a prey driven dog, and she has stages where she can go nuts for the tug/toy. But in the end, it is no where near as strong as her food drive and I can get much more consistent drive and focus out of her with food.

I don't at the moment believe that working in food drive is the same as working in prey drive, but I have nothing to base that on but sheer instinct. .

It produces the same motor pattern in the dog's brain, no matter which 'drive' you are using. Both are still a subconscious reaction to a stimuli. Both still give the dog a chemical reward (release of endorphins). A dog working in food drive and a dog work in prey drive looks the same if done correctly. The training is pretty much exactly the same, the principles/methods are really identical. Daisy chasing a tug and Daisy chasing a piece of food in my hand looks the same and produces the same result - well, if I can get her working with that same level of drive with the tug as I can with food. There's no difference in how the dog looks or acts.

Love Nikon's obedience work too!

That's exactly how I would use a prey item, making it about the chase rather than just tug tug tug. His prancing is great - I am trying to get a bit of a prance with Daisy but it doesn't look quite as good when a beagle does it compared to a sheppie haha.

Liesje

huski, my TD's Malinois (who competes nationally) has nearly equal ball/toy and food drive.  However he usually uses the same concept I do: toy when he wants drive, food to teach a new behavior or if cleaning up precision.  As I said before, I personally do not see the difference in using these drives for obedience, but for us, using the toy/ball/prey drive is just far more practical.  That is more about the type of training we are doing and how we reward our dogs than which drive is better or more effective.  The tug/fight and retrieve aspects that come into play when using a toy with your dog are things we use in certain areas of the sport like protection and the formal retrieves (which are not only done on the flat, but on a taller jump and over a steep A-frame).  Also, most people do a lot of foundation work with their puppies which involves NO obedience but lots of play, building drive for their toy, some frustration (backtying agitation), and tons of confidence building.  At the same time, my puppy was also earning food for learning basic skills but there's no way to use food the same way I used toys.  Originally he was *only* interested in food rewards, but I knew that wasn't going to cut it for his line of work so I worked super hard for (and still work to maintain) his ball drive.

 

Oh, I totally get why you would want prey drive with Schutzhund, instead of food drive. I would do exactly the same if I had a dog with strong prey drive even if I was just training obedience - use food when I don't want drive and use the prey item when I do.

I have a dog here who would be equal prey/food - unfortunately that's not the case with my beagle, her food drive is way stronger than prey. If I had the choice I would always choose to have a dog with a higher prey drive than food but at the end of the day I will use what works best with my dog, what natural drive is strongest, and what produces the best results.

huski

Love Nikon's obedience work too!

That's exactly how I would use a prey item, making it about the chase rather than just tug tug tug. His prancing is great - I am trying to get a bit of a prance with Daisy but it doesn't look quite as good when a beagle does it compared to a sheppie haha.

 

LOL thanks!  Usually there's a bit more prancing but I was out of sync this morning (it was a lot warmer than I had dressed for!).  Since the GSD is kind of a long dog you really have to match your stride to theirs to get a nice, rhythmic prance.  As he grows and fills out it continues to change.  I've seen some high drive GSDs with a weird stride/prance, almost like they are stutter stepping and then rearing up every second or third step and I don't really want it to end up like that, but since he's still a puppy we're still in "play mode" as far as obedience (when I am working more seriously with him we do a lot more fading out the reward).

Liesje

Maybe I just don't understand this statement....some SchH trainers have been training this way for decades or more.  Certainly not a new frontier, using the dog's various drives

 

 

For any years we could look up how various animals behave under various diferent reward ratios(or adversive appliactions) based on food generally. There was acres of literature on it. There wasn't a whole lot about how play could be used. If you pick up any of Lindsay's tomes. you will get my gist pretty quickly.

We can now start to see how animals behave using the PLAY circuits and the SEEKING circuits (I am not yelling at you, i am just keeping to the convention used in the literature) . It is really exciting and helps to finesse our observations and training. This is the new frontier.

Some scientists talk about RAT play (Rough and Tumble play) which many trainers use. 

I will try as time permits post a few things on each of these topics with some references.

Liesje

LOL thanks!  Usually there's a bit more prancing but I was out of sync this morning (it was a lot warmer than I had dressed for!).  Since the GSD is kind of a long dog you really have to match your stride to theirs to get a nice, rhythmic prance.  As he grows and fills out it continues to change.  I've seen some high drive GSDs with a weird stride/prance, almost like they are stutter stepping and then rearing up every second or third step and I don't really want it to end up like that, but since he's still a puppy we're still in "play mode" as far as obedience (when I am working more seriously with him we do a lot more fading out the reward).

 

How do you go about fading out the reward? Do you work toward getting it off you and releasing the dog to it? My trainer trains PP dogs as well as doing Schutzhund/IPO and works on getting the prey item off him so he releases the dog to it. I will use the same principle with food.